78 Years Ago Today Churchill Incinerated 100,000 Defenseless Civilians in Dresden https://russia-insider.com/en/78-yea...medium=twitter he blamed it on the servicemen under "his" command?
78 Years Ago Today Churchill Incinerated 100,000 Defenseless Civilians in Dresden https://russia-insider.com/en/78-yea...medium=twitter he blamed it on the servicemen under "his" command?
Point one official German figures place the death toll at 25000.
Point two nearly half the bombers were USAF
Point three the city had 110 factories supporting the war effort including aircraft parts, artililary and anti-aircraft guns, a poison gas factory and was a significant railway hub, it was ranked by the US one of the formost industrial sites in the Reich.
Point four the Germans were first to use incidendary weapons agains cilvian cities Rotterdam 14th May 1940 then Coventry blitz 14th November 1940 and then 29/30 December 1940.
pintrest. asides from being horrendously coded and a piece of shit clickbait meta-website... threw this in a google search result (don't worry it was sandboxed and routed through proxies)
"77 best Radiation Caused Birth Deformities images on Pinterest "
Accidents do happen - (such as this one) - don't they? - Well they said it was an accident, they didn't realise it was an American ship!
100 Years Ago US Troops Attacked Russia's Pacific Coast and Committed Atrocities https://russia-insider.com/en/100-ye...cities/ri22341 Selective history overlooked emphasizing this bit?
I saw your brief reply regarding bombing of Dresden, but felt it presented
a slightly one sided view (and a partial justification on Churchill's part).
I'm not a historian, but do have a strong interest in history. This reply is
a bit long (be warned), and there is no obligation to read it.
I have tried to reply to the points you raised in the same order.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombin...n_World_War_II
While I have a number of history texts, I have inserted Wiki links where the
online articles appear to provide reasonably even handed coverage. Also easier
than trying to scan and upload content.
1. Civilian Population Loss during Bombing of Cities in WW2
Agree that various parties (German and other) inflated the supposed death toll
for propaganda purposes (i.e. 100,00 ; 200,000), and that subsequent analysis
arrived at a total around 25,000.
However, I would argue that a largely civilian death toll of 25,000 is still a fairly
horrendous total (irrespective of the nationality of the victims).
You mention other European or UK cities for comparison (Rotterdam and Coventry)
a. Rotterdam suffered 885 civilian deaths when bombed in May 1940. The majority
of the deaths arose due to margarine oil tanks by the wharves that were hit, and
which then caused extensive fires.
[ Note: The wife had some Dutch family who were living in Rotterdam during the
bombing and subsequent occupation. Very interesting people to talk with when we
visited them in 1987, about two years before the Berlin Wall came down ]
b. Coventry had suffered several bombing raids mid to late 1940 and once in 1941
(est'd civilian death toll 1,235 )
We could add:
c. The London Blitz has reported a civilian death toll between 32,000 and 45,000
when bombed over the 8-9 month period between September 1940 and May 1941.
d. Hamburg reported a civilian death toll of 45,000 when fire-bombed in July 1943.
We could also add bombing raids that occurred later over Japan:
e. Tokyo - Fire bombing in March 1945 (Doolittle raids) - est'd 100,000 killed
f. Hiroshima - First A-bomb - April 1945 - est'd 90,000 - 145,000 killed
g. Nagasaki - Second A-bomb - April 1945 - est'd 40,000 - 80,000 killed
All of which were horrific in their own way.
Yes, the Germans may have been 'first' to have used incendiaries (intended to
destroy roofs of industrial buildings). Should we also note that the US was the
'first'to use A-bombs ?
But I would like to keep attention focused on what I believe were the key themes
of the original RT article, which were:
-That Dresden was not a significant enough military target to warrant bombing of
the civilian city centre,
and
-That Churchill was either directly or largely indirectly responsible for the Dresden
civilian death toll.
Given its proximity to the advancing Russian front at that time - as well as the
number of refugees streaming west to escape the Red Army, Dresden was known to
harbour a "high civilian population". As well as few in the way of bomb shelters.
Indeed, following the Dresden raid, Churchill was subsequently "called out" in the
House of Commons, and "accused" of perpetrating "terror bombing".
It appears he was quite willing to politically sidestep this accusation, and to
allow the head of the RAF "Bomber Command" (Arthur "Bomber" Harris) to accept
the responsibility for this operation.
Despite Harris's reputation - and willingness to undertake "area bombing" (instead
of "precision bombing" in order to reduce potential civilian casualty), it appears
he was still a little reluctant to accept responsibility for Dresden.
2. USAF and RAF
The timeline table included in the link at top shows that there were multiple bombing
attacks spanning October 1944 to April 1945; however, all raids but one were aimed
at the rail marshalling yards (and adjacent industrial areas).
The most well known bombing raid (14 February 1945) were indeed split between USAF
and RAF forces, but it was the RAF that chose to hit the civilian centre of the city.
The weather for that raid was cloudy, and the RAF forces did not necessarily have
clear sight of the areas that were being bombed. Question was also raised whether
the RAF had adequate maps for navigation.
3. Factories and Railways
Factories
I understand that the bulk of the industrial buildings lay well north of the city
centre, along with the main switching yards.
And while an estimated 150 factories (manufacturing a range of war materials and
synfuel) were thought to be present, nothing that I have read indicates that the
factories were targetted to any great extent during the USAF bombing raids.
Railways
I understand the main target of the bombings in 1945 were the railway lines and
switching yards, to prevent the shift of men and material to the war front.
There were two main rail lines (roughly NW - SE) through the wider city. And the
goal of hindering transport of men and materials could largely have been achieved
by concentrating on bombing of bridges plus the railways and switch yards.
4. Rationale for Bombing
Both Allies and Germans alike have argued over the real purpose of the fire bombing;
the “official” Allied rationale was that Dresden was a "major communications centre"
and that bombing it would hamper the German ability to support its army, which was
battling Soviet forces nearing Berlin at the time.
But the extent of destruction was, to many, disproportionate to the stated strategic
goal. Many believed that the attack was simply an attempt to "punish the Germans"
and to "weaken their morale".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/w...ts-people.html
A memo issued to RAF airmen on the night of the attack indicated a secondary purpose
of the raid was to "show the Russians when they arrive [at Dresden] what [the British]
Bomber Command can do." Hold that thought for a minute !
5. Any Other Possible Reasons?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable
Churchill was avidly anti-communist (since the 1920's), he disliked Joe Stalin strongly,
and he feared that withdrawal of some US ground forces from western Germany (transfer
to the Pacific War theatre) might compromise the security of UK ground forces in Europe.
Within days of the war in Europe ending, Churchill surprised his Chiefs-of-Staff by asking
whether an Anglo-American force could force the Red Army back from the River Elbe. With
the goal of liberating areas as far as Poland.
He tasked his military planners to come up with a plan that could also include using German
personnel and what was left of Germany’s economic might. He even thought of a date for such
an assault – July 1st 1945. Four days before the UK general election. [Operation Unthinkable]
The Chief of the English Army, General Sir Alan Brooke, was appalled at the plan, likening
the Prime Minister to a warmonger. Brooke noted in his diary that Churchill was “longing
for another war”.
One of the reasons Churchill pressed the matter was the fact he knew about the Manhattan
Project and how close America was to developing atomic bombs passed the test phase. He
even told Brooke that if Stalin failed to listen to the West’s wishes, the US could target
Moscow, Stalingrad and then Kiev.
And where was this operation due to commence ? Dresden.
Fortunately, Truman declined the proposal, principally because he thought that the US might
require some Russia forces to participate in the defeat of Japan. Truman has gained Stalin's
agreement to this idea at Yalta, agreeing that Russia would start to attack Japan 3 months
after the end of the European war theatre.
And Stalin kept his word, starting attack on Japan on August 8th 1945 (3 months to the day)
- right inbetween the USAF dropping A-bombs on Japan (6th and 9th August 1945) as it so
happened.
[Note: Stalin learned of Churchill's plan soon after request had been made for its preparation]
6. Rebuilding of Important Buildings in Dresden
Dresden had been regarded as one of the cultural centres of Germany. One of the most notable
buildings was the Frauenkirke, which had a fine baroque structure. While it has been called
a cathedral, it was not officially ranked as such [ no bishop in residence ].
I can recall seeing the remains of the Frauenkirke in 1987, very much as in the small photo
shown in the link at top.
Funding and reconstruction of the Frauenkirke did not commence until after East and West
Germany had been reunited in 1991.
And strangely, the English were happy to be involved in the reconstruction effort. In Britain,
the Dresden Trust has the Duke of Kent as its royal patron and the Bishop of Coventry among
its curators. Dr. Paul Oestreicher, a canon emeritus of Coventry Cathedral and a founder of
the Dresden Trust, wrote: "This church is to Dresden what St. Paul's [Cathedral] is to London".
7. Churchill's History of WW2 and Personal Memoirs
"History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it". This line is attributed to Churchill, but he
didn't actually say it. Though the gist is much the same, what he actually did say was:
"For my part, I consider that it will be found much better by all parties to leave the past
to history, especially as I propose to write that history".
I think that history has been unduly kind to Churchill, undeservedly so. Perhaps a little
rebalancing is in order?
While it has been a matter of personal interest to have copies and have read his memoirs and
the six volume set "History of World War II", it has also been interesting to note some of the
topics which seem to have been omitted by Churchill from any real mention or discussion e.g.
a. Czechoslovakia - Standing up for Benes in 1938
b. The Holocaust - 1938 (Kristallnacht) through to 1945
c. The Rudolph Hess Affair - A possible secret peace deal with Hitler - 1940
d. Delay of the D-Day Invasion from 1942 to 1944
e. The Bengal Famine in India - 1943 - 1944
f. Liberation and Control of Greece - 1944 - 1946
g. Operation Unthinkable - 1945
Just to mention a few.
I see that Churchill's reputation has been polished again recently, with the release of the
movie "Darkest Hour". Yet I suspect that if the true details of the Rudolph Hess affair had
been exposed to the general public, their judgement of him might have been quite different.
You should ask yourself why Hess was incarcerated in Spandau prison until his death in 1987.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Hess
8. Churchill the Orator
Churchill has always been noted as an orator, and most commonly mentioned are four of his
speeches (the first three made in the House of Commons around the time of the Battle of
Britain):
a. Blood, Sweat and Tears - May 1940
b. Fight Them on the Beaches - June 1940
c. This was their Finest Hour - June 1940
d. An Iron Curtain Descending across Europe - May 1946
But there is a small degree of irony in respect to two of these four speeches:
The "We Will Fight Them on the Beaches" speech was plaigarised in part from the speech
by Robert Emmet (an Irish nationalist), as he stood in the dock sentenced of rebellion and
awaiting the death sentence by the English in 1803.
Churchill’s ancestry was linked to loyalism to Britain, as he was a direct descendent of the
Marquis of Londonderry who helped put down the 1798 United Irishmen rising. And barely
100 years later (1904), Churchill still "remained of the opinion that a separate Parliament
for Ireland would be both dangerous and impractical".
The Black and Tans of the 1920's were the brainchild of Churchill; he sent them to Ireland
to impose their will. Attacking both civilians and civilian property, they did Churchill proud,
rampaging across the country and carrying out reprisals.
The "An Iron Curtain Descending across Europe" was in part plaigarised from an editorial
written by Goebbels in early 1945, where he was contemplating a future situation where the
Nazis had been successful in defeating the Russians and consolidating the Third Reich.
But what was Churchill actually lamenting when he wrote and delivered his speech in 1946?
Was he upset about the recent take-over of various eastern European nations by Stalin's
armies in 1945?
No. It was the fact that the Russians had just refused to accept and ratify the one-sided
Bretton Woods Agreement offered to them, where all world trade would be conducted in
terms of the US dollar (and where USSR financial control would be ceded to US banks i.e.
the Fed).
Sound familiar to de-dollarisation today ?
9. Visiting These Cities
Apart from Coventry, I have been fortunate to visit all the other cities listed in part 1.
It is one thing to read a number of dead due to warime activity, but quite another to visit
their museums and memorials commemorating the dead (always quite sombre to see photos
of the death and destruction).
But apart from causing death, bombing destroyed some amazing buildings and architecture.
Which were an integral part of their culture.
In Germany in 2008, a collection of more than 3,000 aerial photographs of Germany before and
during the allied bombing campaign of WW2 was re-discovered. The collection presented the most
comprehensive record of how devastating the campaign was on the country's cultural heritage.
In case you are interested:
http://www.fotomarburg.de/bestaende/uebernahm/kieler
Cheers,
Viking
Agreed
All bombing is horiffic i just pointed out the British did not start the targeting of cilivilians or terror bombing.
the difference in losses is acounted by the allies having achieved air superority and bigger heavy bomber forces.
Also the British limited their civilian losses by evacuating cities poulations to the country.
US percision bombing is not accurate even though it was carried out generally in daytime with huge loses even with their better armed planes it should be noted at least 60 of the bombers missed the country of Grmany in this raid let alone the city and mistakenley bombed Poland instead
The RAF bombers were guided by pathfinders (MOZZies) using radio location
As i pointed out 60 of the US bombers bombed the entire wrong country.
synfuel plants were targeted at the same time.TUS bomber were specifically targeting the railyard but as the weather was poor they bombed the center.360 RAF bombers targeted Bohlen that same night. Also as air superiority of the allies incresed the RAF did more daylight percision raids rather than area bombing.
Railways and bridges are rather hard to target.
All allies like to think they are better.
All German industrial and manufacturing centres were high priority targets. Dresden had been targeted prior.
but unsuccessfully until the raids.
Of course there are human elements at play with the bombing of Germany, but remember as i pointed out England did not bomb Germany's cities first.
Nor did they sink their unarmed merchant ships first etc.
The escalation into this form of war started with Germany.
Like it or not without the destruction of Germany's infrastructure more allied soldiers and civilians would have been lost. Dresden was a major German city 6th in size.
it was a manufacturing hub. 25,000 people were employed directly in manufacturing.
The losses were lower in the London blitz as Londoners had already been bombed WW1 and had effective defences plus a rather useful air raid bunker system (The underground)
Have They Lied To Us About Absolutely EVERYTHING?? -- Bart Sibrel
Same Churchill different historian?
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