Why electric vehicles aren't the answer

[avgas]

the future of electric car (if there is one) is in dogems... Less insurance claims too

......which is also where road cars are going.....

Article here:
http://www.coolthings.com/tom-wright...l-bumper-cars/

[bogan]

I think 1 thing alot of people don't know or have forgotten is the "electric revolution" has already failed 2 or 3 times previous. I see this time being no different, which is good, cause I also don't want to see my power bill skyrocket either!

Oil used to be cheaper, and there used to be more of it. One day we won't be able to compare electric car performance to petrol for the masses, as there won't be enough petrol to go around! I think most people choose to forget that petrol is a finite resource.

I hope they sort out the hydrogen issues and get that as efficient as battery stuff is now, and we slowly go from petrol to hydrogen ICE (new cars or standard cars with conversion kits) to hydrogen fuel cells, with a smattering of electric vehicles along the way.

[jonbuoy]

I have posted my thoughts on electric a while ago and stand by them.
You will essentially be sitting a a hulking great electro magnetic fucken field frying your gonads when you sling your leg over an electric motor.
Some electric vehicles actually carry warnings for pregnant females not to travel in them.
It is an issue.
To me hydrogen will be the answer.

Thousands of people travel on electric trains.

[Scuba_Steve]

Oil used to be cheaper, and there used to be more of it. One day we won't be able to compare electric car performance to petrol for the masses, as there won't be enough petrol to go around! I think most people choose to forget that petrol is a finite resource.

I hope they sort out the hydrogen issues and get that as efficient as battery stuff is now, and we slowly go from petrol to hydrogen ICE (new cars or standard cars with conversion kits) to hydrogen fuel cells, with a smattering of electric vehicles along the way.

don't get me wrong I'm not saying oil is the ongoing answer or even good, I'm just saying electric is not where it's at. Hydrogen could be the answer? thats why I'm hopeful for the cella energy research they're packaging hydrogen in 2 ways.
1st. safe (no need for special holding tanks at minus centigrade, standard station pumps will do)
2nd. it's able to be used in standard cars without conversion.

as for oil being "finite" it probably is, but that is just guess work we don't even know where the stuff comes from at the end of the day & again it was supposed to be run out many times over so it could be round much longer than we think.

[oneofsix]

as for oil being "finite" it probably is, but that is just guess work we don't even know where the stuff comes from at the end of the day & again it was supposed to be run out many times over so it could be round much longer than we think.

IMO oil isn't as finite as the propaganda would have us believe. We can manufacture the stuff but whilst big money is invested in sucking it out of the ground oil manufacture will not be invested in. Whilst the manufacture of oil isn't invested in it will be too expensive. Same economics you see in the electronics markets with new toys (giveme giveme giveme).
The way I see it going is oil will start to be manufactured and then from that will grow the new fuel.
Hydrogen + Hindenburg, I can't see hydrogen having an easy road at the moment. BTW the Hydrogen was a lesser factor in the Hindenburg's loss of life than most credit.

[avgas]

Oil used to be cheaper

Actually its still cheap.

You know when Oil is expensive on peoples behavior. When it is too expensive to drive to get the groceries. When the car is ONLY used for long trips in the weekends.

I estimate this price someone around NZ$5-10/L.

I reckon we will get there around 10-20 years time.

Perhaps we will change our fuel before then. Analysts estimate that the substitution cost is around the NZ$4/L mark. At that point people will by alternative fuel cars - whether it is nuclear or electric.

[avgas]

Thousands of people travel on electric trains.

Actually to add salt to the wound millions of people travel on electric trains that have an induction based system.
Thats right a train that rely on EMF to run........much to 240's dismay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev_(transport)

[oneofsix]

Actually its still cheap.

You know when Oil is expensive on peoples behavior. When it is too expensive to drive to get the groceries. When the car is ONLY used for long trips in the weekends.

I estimate this price someone around NZ$5-10/L.

I reckon we will get there around 10-20 years time.

Perhaps we will change our fuel before then. Analysts estimate that the substitution cost is around the NZ$4/L mark. At that point people will by alternative fuel cars - whether it is nuclear or electric.

you scary. You've just given the oil companies a price to aim for. like when the media started harping on about $2/L it seemed the oil companies set out to find the quickest way there and now there they are trying to find the next price break the public will accept.
NB: I do mean the oil companies and not the petrol retailers.

[bogan]

IMO oil isn't as finite as the propaganda would have us believe. We can manufacture the stuff but whilst big money is invested in sucking it out of the ground oil manufacture will not be invested in. Whilst the manufacture of oil isn't invested in it will be too expensive. Same economics you see in the electronics markets with new toys (giveme giveme giveme).
The way I see it going is oil will start to be manufactured and then from that will grow the new fuel.
Hydrogen + Hindenburg, I can't see hydrogen having an easy road at the moment. BTW the Hydrogen was a lesser factor in the Hindenburg's loss of life than most credit.

You mean biofuel? a guy at uni did some research on that, and I think he found if all the land in europe was converted to biofeul production, it would produce enough for only one of the countries. Or it may have been city/country, regardless, unless they GE algae or something drastic, biofeul is even less viable than batteries.

[oneofsix]

You mean biofuel? a guy at uni did some research on that, and I think he found if all the land in europe was converted to biofeul production, it would produce enough for only one of the countries. Or it may have been city/country, regardless, unless they GE algae or something drastic, biofeul is even less viable than batteries.

perhaps he forgot to tell Brazil, of course they didn't frig around with corn and algae but instead went for sugar as a feedstock, higher calorific value

[bogan]

perhaps he forgot to tell Brazil, of course they didn't frig around with corn and algae but instead went for sugar as a feedstock, higher calorific value

And what is their production like?

[oneofsix]

And what is their production like?

Brazil is the world's second largest producer of ethanol fuel and the world's largest exporter. Together, Brazil and the United States lead the industrial production of ethanol fuel, accounting together for 87.8% of the world's production in 2010. In 2010 Brazil produced 26.2 billion litres (6.92 billion U.S. liquid gallons), representing 30.1% of the world's total ethanol used as fuel.

Brazil is considered to have the world's first sustainable biofuels economy and the biofuel industry leader, a policy model for other countries; and its sugarcane ethanol "the most successful alternative fuel to date."

source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

[bogan]

Brazil is the world's second largest producer of ethanol fuel and the world's largest exporter. Together, Brazil and the United States lead the industrial production of ethanol fuel, accounting together for 87.8% of the world's production in 2010. In 2010 Brazil produced 26.2 billion litres (6.92 billion U.S. liquid gallons), representing 30.1% of the world's total ethanol used as fuel.

Brazil is considered to have the world's first sustainable biofuels economy and the biofuel industry leader, a policy model for other countries; and its sugarcane ethanol "the most successful alternative fuel to date."

source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

That's a hell of a lot different from what I was thinking, 1% of their arable land allows them to run a 20% blended fuel for light vehicles + some for export, that is pretty damn good.

[racefactory]

I estimate this price someone around NZ$5-10/L.

I reckon we will get there around 10-20 years time.

Perhaps we will change our fuel before then. Analysts estimate that the substitution cost is around the NZ$4/L mark. At that point people will by alternative fuel cars - whether it is nuclear or electric.

I'm betting a hell of a lot sooner!! More like 4 years to $5/litre if global population and economic growth continues without too much of a hitch. At which point this forum won't exist anymore- well maybe except the 50cc scooter section.

We've all now got nice and used to the roundish figure of $2.00 a litre thanks to the emergency reserves released by the IEA recently but it's not going to be long at all now I think before we see the next round of 'Pain at the pump' headlines in the herald.

[avgas]

you scary. You've just given the oil companies a price to aim for. like when the media started harping on about $2/L it seemed the oil companies set out to find the quickest way there and now there they are trying to find the next price break the public will accept.
NB: I do mean the oil companies and not the petrol retailers.

Not really. OPEC learnt a lot of lessons in the 1970's and 1980's.
They know the substitution point, they will keep prices for as low as possible for as long as possible.
They are currently taking as much money in the long run as they can. And reinvesting this into stuff that will make them money in the future. BP is actually a world leader in solar panels now.
You might find this report I did a while ago on the matter interesting. Note it was written before the US went down the gurgler though.