London underground Explodes

[RiderInBlack]

You know its racism that causes terrorism.

And I also know that terrorism causes racism. If Al Queada (sp) want Westies to think Muslism Radicals are cool bunch of dudes you'd love to invite to your babie, they going the wrong way about it.

[Deano]

I don't presume to know the Koran at all, but if what was reported on 60 minutes this week is true (stoning homosexuals to death, views on women etc) then why would anyone want to follow Islam ? It's beyond me.

And when a film is made that depicts Islam in a bad light, the producer is murdered and the writer receives death threats and has to have round the clock protection.

[MadDuck]

Ok so its time to reflect. When I started the post last night all hell was breaking lose and the media were having a field day. HEAP killed and yadda yadda ....

Having spent some time there I know that hitting the underground would destroy the public access to and from the centre of London. I have to say the London emergency services were so READY for this kind of attack and it showed in their calmness both from the police interviews through to the people who had microphones shoved in their faces.

I kinda feel sorry for the terrorists (PT!) cos they woke the sleeping giant. Watch this space cos one thing the English dont do is lie down to this kinda thing.

Glad to see our London KBers all safe and sound !

[jazbug5]

I don't presume to know the Koran at all, but if what was reported on 60 minutes this week is true (stoning homosexuals to death, views on women etc) then why would anyone want to follow Islam ? It's beyond me.

And when a film is made that depicts Islam in a bad light, the producer is murdered and the writer receives death threats and has to have round the clock protection.

I'd say that folk who say that the Koran justifies these acts remind me more than a little of certain 'Christians'. George Dubya, anyone?

I am not Muslim (obviously) but have friends who are, and my sister has read it front to back (or is that back to front..?). Apparently none of these things feature prominently and murder is certainly not justifiable according to its laws. The oppression of women also has more to do with the mores of the desert cultures that adopted Islam- they didn't allow women to read or interpret the Book, and therefore were able to use it to justify all sorts of things. Not an idea exclusive to the practise of this religion.

Anyway, my heart goes out to the victims of this and of this whole situation. Innocent people may well suffer in eventual repercussions(sp?), also.

[Indiana_Jones]

Having spent some time there I know that hitting the underground would destroy the public access to and from the centre of London. I have to say the London emergency services were so READY for this kind of attack and it showed in their calmness both from the police interviews through to the people who had microphones shoved in their faces.

I kinda feel sorry for the terrorists (PT!) cos they woke the sleeping giant. Watch this space cos one thing the English dont do is lie down to this kinda thing.

One funny thing I find is how the media here and in other countries are like "what the hell?, they're calm?"
I think it's something we poms have built in or what not

And no, we won't bow to those dickless pieces of shit, unlike the Spanish. Wow, I mean I wish I had the balls to blow up unarmed cilivains going to work, big man

-Indy

[TwoSeven]

Hmm.. reading the Qur'an or لْقُرآن.. I assume she speaks fluent arabic ? or perhaps one of the sectarian english translations.

Its the written version of gods word as revealed by gabriel to muhammad some 1400 years ago. She'd also know that any translation (non-arabic version) would not be deemed a literal translation of the word of god. Also she may be able to name the number of surah.

There are 3 sects belonging to the muslim religion (like we have jews, catholics and prodestants) these are.

Alhus Sunnah Wal-Jamaa'h or Sunni muslim, Shi'ate Ali or Shi'a Islam and the Karijites (hopefully spelt that right).

Sunni is the largest religion and what most people will follow. Its based on two things, the words of the Qur'an and the deeds of Muhummad (salafee). They use the latter to translate the former. Since Muhummad was a generally nice bloke, they dont believe in killing and all that.

The shia are followers of Ali Talib one of the decendents of Muhammad they could be considered extremists if it werent for the last lot the Karajites. When Muhammad died their was a bit of a power strugle between Ali and a few others over who should be boss. The losers became fundemental extremists who believe in the literal translation of the Qur'an. These are the Karajites.

The problem is, that if you use the deeds of the generally nice bloke muhammad in reading the qur'an then the translation works out generally nice. However, if you dont, and take the literal translations then you get double meanings.

For example - take the following rough translation.

"Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: They are themselves but fuel for the Fire"

Now, the christian bible has a similar phrase. But in christianity we basically say, disbelivers will burn in hell after they die, unless they repent and believe in god. Its usually pretty specific about the 'after they die' perferably of natural causes bit.

If you use the deeds of muhammad (the generally nice bloke) you get the same translation. If you dont you get something along these lines.

If they refuse to believe in god, then they are fire fodder. It could be taken as a good idea to then put them on the fire.

Which kind of implies you should knock them on the head now, rather than wait for them to die of natural causes as good christians would.

So you can see the problem. When god epressed his views to muhammad who promptly wrote them down. He kind of forgot to express his intent (meaning). So muhummad never wrote that bit down. There has been strife in iraq ever since as they have been fighting each other over who's 'intent' was right ever since. Hence the current problems in Iraq.

Its important to note that this has nothing to do with terrorism. This is just people fighting each other over who's belief is the correct one. They couldnt give a monkies about foreigners. Sometimes the word Jahid pops up. There are two variants - Greater jihad used to mean the 'struggle' against vices and the like (ie. the to implmement the 10 commandments in christianity) and the lesser jihad which means holy war (or struggle to teach non-believers the way of islam). A mujahid is someone who practices lesser jihad hence mujahideen (strugglers).

When I said muhammad is a generally nice chap, he was a mujahid, he and his followers used to nip to the neighboring visitors and educate (perform jihad) on the local inhabitants. Its not documented what happened to those that failed to become educated in the ways of allah. Which is comes back to Muhammads failure to document 'intent'. You see, jihad also meant 'holy war' which in those days meant - going round educating people in a crusade - but by peaceful means'. Its kind of like bob geldoff declaring war on poverty. It means we should get rid of poverty - not kill poor people.

Still nothing to do with terrorism.

Bin Laden practices soofism (similar to salafee of sunnah), which is fairly peaceful. He is also a follower of an absolute mad egyptian nutter by the name of Sayyid Qutb and hence a follower of Qutb'sm.

Sayyid Qutb was born in egypt a westener and converted to islam after living in the US (you'll click about here). He didnt like Nassar (president of egypt) and later (in 1966) got himself hanged.

Being a convert of islam he didnt quite understand it that well and got carried away when he heard about an old militant group known as the Khawaarij who went around butchering muhammads companions (they believed it was ok to kill muslims whereas other muslims didnt). He made a lot of islam up as he went along - which many religious people do. However, being a popular guy he had followers who believed him.

One of his made up bits, where the fact that isalm is in a state of 'unbelief' and this needs to be corrected. He also picked up on the holy war bit and the fact that the khawaajid thought it was ok to kill muslims and bang - you have a bunch of nutters. Now, you may of clicked where I said you would before. Sayyid had a bad time of it in the US - being a dirt poor egyptian, he suffered in the slums, but saw the riches. So he ended up not liking the US that much (think of him as failing to live the american dream).

Anyhow, a few groups that followed Qutb'sm are the al-Qaa'idah and my favorite Jamaah-atuul-jihad (islamic jihad). Qutb found away round the muslim law against overthrowing a muslim leader and one of the groups (al-jihad) were famous for assasinating anwar sadat.

Al-quaa'idah is currently run by a well known chap called usaamah bin laden and al-jihad by his right hand man (married to bin ladens daughter) none other than mr Ayaman Al-Zawahri who currently resides in Iraq (now you know why the US troops hate him so much).

So. Hope that might spread some understanding why islam and terrorism aint quit related.

[jazbug5]

Hmm.. reading the Qur'an or لْقُرآن.. I assume she speaks fluent arabic ? or perhaps one of the sectarian english translations.
.

My sister is a linguist. She taught herself Arabic so that she could read it in the original. Not sure how fluent she is, but. I can't really test her myself!
One of the Muslim friends I mentioned was a bit of a scholar and certainly fluent in Arabic- she was basically was in accord with the view on non-violence.
And on subjective/controlled interpretation. Hasn't everything been altered in transition, somewhat..?

Anyway, cheers for the info in the rest of the post- interesting stuff.

[TwoSeven]

I had a stab at learning arabic when I was in palistine (bet lahama [bethlehem]). I chap I knew tought be a few words in exchange for teaching him english. Is hard because I cant do some of the gutteral sounds. Gave up on the road signs tho. I mean what does squiggle dot squiggle mean.

[surfchick]

heart sank when i saw that news on london. my brother was heading to work..but was sweet.underground closed when he got there. reminded me of ringing to N. ireland when the omagh bomb went off- cousin just back from town- was fine.

my heart goes out to the families of the dead and to all the others who were maimed.

[NC]

OH NO IS THIS SERIOUS? MY MATES JUST GONE TO WORK THERE , AN EX DARBY ST BOY

You're a Darby st boy?

[El Dopa]

One funny thing I find is how the media here and in other countries are like "what the hell?, they're calm?"
I think it's something we poms have built in or what not

-Indy

Yep. Stiff upper lip, Blitz spirit etc etc.

A point that the stupid fucking bint on TV1 news on Friday night COMPLETELY FUCKING MISSED.

She seemed to be under the impression that we were all hiding in the corner, sucking our thumbs and asking daddy why the bad men were doing bad things.

Erm, lady, here's a fucking newsflash for you. Not only did we live through 30 fucking years of IRA bombs, but we've all specifically expected a bomb on the tube for the last 4 years.

Brits may often come across as a bunch of effete tea-drinkers, but we also produce some of the most efficient, cold-blooded killers in the world. It wouldn't surprise me if a few heads in jars of formaldehyde are being used as novelty paperweights in Downing St over the next year or so.

[parsley]

You're not wrong mate - The Met have around 30,000 police officers. That’s not far off half the entire British mainland’s total number of officers. Add to that the Specials - (part time members of the public that assist without pay), civil patrol/civic wardens etc (almost like police - but without the complete arresting powers), then add in the City of London police & British Transport Police and you're up to a potential general policing workforce that numbers between 35 – 40 K people. Plenty to go around me thinks..

My Dad used to run a pub in central London (ah, happy days). One night not long after he took over he was having a bit of trouble with a couple of guys who'd had too much of the beer. They were suits so he didn't expect anything serious but he called the Police like he'd been taught at pub school. 10 minutes later the door opened and about 30 coppers ran in. It turns out that the City of London Police spend most of their weeknights sitting in the station drinking tea. When the call came in that there was trouble in a pub...

Unfortunately most of the other customers cleared out almost immediately. My Dad never called them again.

[parsley]

Its based on two things, the words of the Qur'an and the deeds of Muhummad (salafee). They use the latter to translate the former. Since Muhummad was a generally nice bloke, they dont believe in killing and all that.

Makes you wonder what Muhummad would say if he came back today. "You did WHAT?"

The thing that most politicians and talk show hosts seem to get wrong is talking about things like poverty and lack of education being the cause of terrorism. If you look at most of the leaders of Al Queda, they're all rich, educated men who have spent a large part of their lives drinking, wenching and generally breaking most of the rules they now hold dear. Most of them became terrorists after being involved with the USA in some way. Hmmm...

[El Dopa]

Makes you wonder what Muhummad would say if he came back today. "You did WHAT?"

The thing that most politicians and talk show hosts seem to get wrong is talking about things like poverty and lack of education being the cause of terrorism. If you look at most of the leaders of Al Queda, they're all rich, educated men who have spent a large part of their lives drinking, wenching and generally breaking most of the rules they now hold dear. Most of them became terrorists after being involved with the USA in some way. Hmmm...

Yes, but they draw from a huge pool of unfocussed resentment and anger, and direct it to their own ends.

Drain the pool, and watch the rich, educated evil bastards suffocate.

[justsomeguy]

It is terrible what has happened. Made more tragic by the fact that London had one of the largest public gatherings protesting against attacking Iraq.

I'm extremely relieved that I haven't read any sad information about any KB member's friend/relative being involved in the attacks and that London is getting back to normal.

One thing that has blown me away has been the perfection displayed by the emergency services.

Please note what I'm trying to do below is present my objective view on terrorism and what little I know about it. I strongly condemn any acts of terror.

Although it may seem simple to classify the reasons why people become a terrorist and develop such vile vehemence, the actual rationale motivating such people to live such a savage life is varied and sophisticated.

I once had a chance to speak to an Indian Army officer who dealt/faced terrorists in Kashmir. I also spoke about this subject in general to a friend from East Timor who also has seen terrorism/ violence before his eyes.

Basically they said, "If someone kills a member of your family or a close friend" - kills as in kills in front of you - "then most people who witness this are filled with a great desire for revenge, this desire is usually only satisfied by the killing of a member of the other party. The other person to be killed can be anybody even remotely linked to the other party".

I found this deeply disturbing but understood that this was how such people felt regardless of anything else. Dealing with the bearers of horrible single-mindedness was unfortunately sometimes only possible through the use of a gun.

As Gandhi said: An eye for an eye and the world goes blind.

Now these people are in a traumatised and almost brain washed trance..... Terrorist leaders, politicians, etc take advantage of these horrible feelings and begin to mould people minds into believing that their macabre sentiments are justified. In fact entire generations of children have grown into adults being fed alarming propaganda by these putrid politicians and even Kings from the years past. Now what facade could be more glorified than hiding behind a grotesque distortion of religion?? Hence all the pseudo Islam rubbish. I know several Muslim friends who I assure you tell me that Islam has absolutely nothing to do with what these scoundrels perpetrate.

This brain washing of the public through intelligently appealing to peoples primal desires is something that has been going on since centuries. The Bush campaign gave it a suitable name with their "Hearts and Minds" campaign - Note: These things can be used for both good like Bush is trying and bad like Osama is currently doing. I just hope that they catch and kill as many of these terrorists as soon as possible especially their terrorist leaders.

Once again I'm really, really ecstatic that I haven't read any sad information about any KB members friend/relative and that London seems to be getting back to normal.

.....end of rant.....

JSG