Leaky homes are all just a fairytale

[flyingcrocodile46]

Let me tell you a brief fairy tale. Once upon a time, several years ago, in a land awfully much like this one, a government department called the BIA, and an eager young researcher cousin BRANZ, were set up to mandate and oversee standards and practices in buildings, to authorise and dictate building systems, and to stamp the government's authority on an errant building industry -- in essence to say what the King would and would not allow in building, and to give what they had allowed the Royal seal of approval.

Many people rejoiced that this would save them the brain-ache of being allowed to decide for themselves what was safe and sound. 'Stuff with our seal of approval is safe and sound,' said the nice bureaucrats. 'Excellent!' said the people. Meanwhile, those who did wish to decide for themselves were told not to. 'Don't worry,' the BIA and BRANZ told everyone, 'as long as you all do what you're told and as you're told and when you're told, we'll make sure nothing untoward happens to you.'

And for a while, everything was good in the BIA, and many careers in government were confirmed, and many building suppliers got rich by getting their building systems and their materials approved by the BIA; and many important meetings were attended, many bureaucratic salaries paid, and many BIA determinations and approvals issued.

And the little people of this fair land did all that they were allowed to do and all that they were told to do, and many houses on many hills were erected in the fashion that BIA determinations and approvals said they were allowed to be and told to be - and everyone knew they were safe and sound and could stop thinking for themselves, because as everyone knows the job of the King is to keep everyone safe and sound, and wasn't he and his men doing their job so well! 'Approved by the BIA.' 'Tested by BRANZ.' These were Royal seals of approval and official stamps of safety and soundness that could be relied up on to keep everyone warm and dry. And lo, the people rejoiced in ther homes, and the bureaucrats rejoiced in their big, shiny offices that the people were made to pay for. And the King decided that all was good, and he went off to climb a mountain.

Until one day, the rains came. And it turned out the job had not been done so well; that some of what the BIA had determined had to happen, and had approved should happen, shouldn't have happened at all. And then it also turned out that the people at BRANZ and the BIA were not all-seeing and all-knowing, and that their job had really been one of 'all care and no responsibility.' 'Whoops,' said BRANZ. 'Whoops,' said the BIA; and they changed their name and withdrew their approvals. 'It wasn't our fault,' they said, 'and anyway, you can't sue us because we don't exist anymore.' And they pointed fingers, and vanished in a puff of bureaucracy.

And the good people of that merry, green land looked to each other and wondered why they had ever taken the government and their minions seriously. They wondered why they had worried more about 'fly-by-night' builders, when it was clearly 'fly-by-night' government departments that were the witches and warlocks. And meanwhile, good builders and good designers and home-owners who had relied upon the determinations and approvals of BRANZ and the BIA as being safe, found that the policy of 'all care and no responsibility' only applied to government, and to government departments, and to big suppliers with big legal departments. And the goverment passed laws to encourage the people to fight amongst each other instead. And many good people were ruined. And many other good people went to Queensland and retired. And the cost of building doubled in that green and merry land.

And everyone wondered why they had let it happen.

[imdying]

For the dark universe users that don't like stupid colours and stupid fonts:

Let me tell you a brief fairy tale. Once upon a time, several years ago, in a land awfully much like this one, a government department called the BIA, and an eager young researcher cousin BRANZ, were set up to mandate and oversee standards and practices in buildings, to authorise and dictate building systems, and to stamp the government's authority on an errant building industry -- in essence to say what the King would and would not allow in building, and to give what they had allowed the Royal seal of approval.

Many people rejoiced that this would save them the brain-ache of being allowed to decide for themselves what was safe and sound. 'Stuff with our seal of approval is safe and sound,' said the nice bureaucrats. 'Excellent!' said the people. Meanwhile, those who did wish to decide for themselves were told not to. 'Don't worry,' the BIA and BRANZ told everyone, 'as long as you all do what you're told and as you're told and when you're told, we'll make sure nothing untoward happens to you.'

And for a while, everything was good in the BIA, and many careers in government were confirmed, and many building suppliers got rich by getting their building systems and their materials approved by the BIA; and many important meetings were attended, many bureaucratic salaries paid, and many BIA determinations and approvals issued.

And the little people of this fair land did all that they were allowed to do and all that they were told to do, and many houses on many hills were erected in the fashion that BIA determinations and approvals said they were allowed to be and told to be - and everyone knew they were safe and sound and could stop thinking for themselves, because as everyone knows the job of the King is to keep everyone safe and sound, and wasn't he and his men doing their job so well! 'Approved by the BIA.' 'Tested by BRANZ.' These were Royal seals of approval and official stamps of safety and soundness that could be relied up on to keep everyone warm and dry. And lo, the people rejoiced in ther homes, and the bureaucrats rejoiced in their big, shiny offices that the people were made to pay for. And the King decided that all was good, and he went off to climb a mountain.

Until one day, the rains came. And it turned out the job had not been done so well; that some of what the BIA had determined had to happen, and had approved should happen, shouldn't have happened at all. And then it also turned out that the people at BRANZ and the BIA were not all-seeing and all-knowing, and that their job had really been one of 'all care and no responsibility.' 'Whoops,' said BRANZ. 'Whoops,' said the BIA; and they changed their name and withdrew their approvals. 'It wasn't our fault,' they said, 'and anyway, you can't sue us because we don't exist anymore.' And they pointed fingers, and vanished in a puff of bureaucracy.

And the good people of that merry, green land looked to each other and wondered why they had ever taken the government and their minions seriously. They wondered why they had worried more about 'fly-by-night' builders, when it was clearly 'fly-by-night' government departments that were the witches and warlocks. And meanwhile, good builders and good designers and home-owners who had relied upon the determinations and approvals of BRANZ and the BIA as being safe, found that the policy of 'all care and no responsibility' only applied to government, and to government departments, and to big suppliers with big legal departments. And the goverment passed laws to encourage the people to fight amongst each other instead. And many good people were ruined. And many other good people went to Queensland and retired. And the cost of building doubled in that green and merry land.

And everyone wondered why they had let it happen.

[george formby]

The invisible ink is not quite dry yet.



I guess all the bureaucrats became council building inspectors?

[flyingcrocodile46]

I guess all the bureaucrats became council building inspectors?

I don't think anyone lost their jobs. The new department needed competant and experienced people.

[SPman]

The invisible ink is not quite dry yet.



I guess all the bureaucrats became council building inspectors?

No - the bureaucrats became the arsehole building inspectors that wouldn't recognise a sound building if it bit them on the todger, but knew how to pedantically enforce rules......

[flyingcrocodile46]

No - the bureaucrats became the arsehole building inspectors that wouldn't recognise a sound building if it bit them on the todger, but knew how to invent and pedantically enforce rules......

TBH I don't think you will find anyone from BRANZ or the old BIA working as an inspector.

[Swoop]

It's perfectly alright. We have solved the "leaky homes crisis" today with a very simple solution.

If you have a leaky home, just invite your local gang around to use it for manufacturing "P"!
When the police raid the place, the cleanup operation will need to demolish the structure and you get a new house*!







* "New house" may or may not include a genuine new house, conditions apply, see conditions, no free set of ginzu knives included.

[Winston001]

Interesting Croc. Can't say I knew or thought the BIA or BRANZ were at fault. It seemed to me the leaky buildings were/are caused by inexperienced or shoddy construction methods. Coupled with stupid "dry climate" designs which ignored the fact rain and wind are normal throughout NZ and houses need to shed the weather.

[FJRider]

Interesting Croc. Can't say I knew or thought the BIA or BRANZ were at fault. It seemed to me the leaky buildings were/are caused by inexperienced or shoddy construction methods. Coupled with stupid "dry climate" designs which ignored the fact rain and wind are normal throughout NZ and houses need to shed the weather.

Nobody pointed out to them what the SUB means, in NZ's status as Sub-Tropical ...

And gave no thought about the large amount of coastline ... and amount of ground that is described as Coastal ... with the benefits coastal weather brings ...

[Reckless]

Finally some sees this for what it really is! 10000 points Croc!

A lot of us where building with materials and systems we thought where 100% ok, told to use or could buy! (There was a long period there all you could buy was untreated frame the timber suppliers simply didnt produce treated frame)!

We where doing the best job we new how, with the materials, systems and processes available at the time! and that includes the inspectors!

A lot of us are now sitting in our homes wondering when the axe is going to fall for something we thought we did 100% right, with untreated frame and approved cladding systems!!

This mess was first and foremost created, cultivated and manufactured by the people in the fairytale!

Finally! thanks Croc!!

[BMWST?]

Finally some sees this for what it really is! 10000 points Croc!

A lot of us where building with materials and systems we thought where 100% ok, told to use or could buy! (There was a long period there all you could buy was untreated frame the timber suppliers simply didnt produce treated frame)!

We where doing the best job we new how, with the materials, systems and processes available at the time! and that includes the inspectors!

A lot of us are now sitting in our homes wondering when the axe is going to fall for something we thought we did 100% right, with untreated frame and approved cladding systems!!

This mess was first and foremost created, cultivated and manufactured by the people in the fairytale!

Finally! thanks Croc!!

treated timber was always available..

[flyingcrocodile46]

treated timber was always available..

But not allways when you wanted it in the quantities you wanted and the treatment type you wanted. Strictly speaking you aren't wrong as even chemical free framing was deemed to be 'treated' It went through a process which altered its properties. However it is unlikely that there was enough kiln dried H1.2, 3.1 or 3.2 (properly treated) framing in Akld to frame up more than a half a dozen houses at any given time.

Anyway the point is that the government told everyone that it was ok to use Chem free framing as it would be perfectly fine despite a wealth of evidence to the contrary and it was in fact anything but fine and has more than quadrupled the cost of fixing what would otherwise be repairable defects.

It was a politically motivated decision by scum bag politicians so that they could win votes. They couldn't have cared less if it worked or not.

It didn't work, and rather than standing up and accepting blame for their part they disbanded the BIA and made it all but impossible to join either the BIA or BRANZ to any recovery action while at the same time they paved (and paid) the way for owners to sue builders for the failures (which had always been there, but with lesser consequences) in order to take the heat off themselves for legislating inferior building systems that weren't fit for purpose.

The fucking wankers have created a litigious environment which has caused housing costs to skyrocket and duped the public into lynching each other over it so that not only are the home owners victims but potentially everyone who ever worked in the industry and relied on the advice given to them by the regulatory authorities set in place to govern the industry. Its a fucking sham. A cunt act of epic proportions.

The biggest pity is that it worked and we are all so busy hating on each other that we aren't seeing the truth.

[Reckless]

I typed this a few weeks ago I seldom log on to kiwi biker so I didn't post it up!

I learnt something last week that had been worrying me, as part of my original post explains Diffusion treatment I'd thought id post it up!

Here goes a few thoughts/ideas put out there for discussion??

treated timber was always available..

Disagree about timber supply as well! I asked for it many times! Got told, had to wait for it to be specially processed, it would cost mega bucks as a special order, it would take weeks, it would simply be cost prohibitive IF they could get the mill to produce it! It was basically a no go! The last house I did 8 years ago was Insulclad with full H3 frame at huge cost. Some houses being built where untreated frame with H3 bottom plates, some where not, the whole thing was a huge mess!! We went from boric treated frame, to untreated frame, and now back to dipped H1.2 frame! A cock up with the timber companies dictating, not controlled by the BIA!!

Case in point the latest 3604 2011 has regulated the MSG6 and MSG10 grade timbers to the back of the book! We only had these grades for one reason. So the timber producers could charge more for different grades! Another example of the DBH making stupid decisions and being pushed from pillar to post by the timber producers.Why the hell we have H3.1 and H3.2 grades for different areas also makes no sense what so ever?? Bloody stupid! But the DBH permits it!

ok let a history lesson from personal experience! I was gen manager of a natural timber housing company at the time and we resisted very very strongly this change to no timber treatment. From the customer reaction angle to the fact the glues wouldn't stick to our manufactured panel with the alternative dipped treatment processes! The timber producers refused to give us boric treated timber or dipped timber and also refused to gaurantee untreated timber without so many out clauses it wasn't funny. Go figure?? We produced homes with untreated timber because we simply couldn't buy anything else!

My Opinion only! What I learnt! The why it all happened!

ok here goes the old Boric treatment was a diffusion treatment! Expensive!
The timber had to be manually fillet stacked (with gaps all round each piece), put under tarps for 6 weeks for the treatment to defuse through, then repacked for sale. As you can imagine this process had large stocks tied up for many weeks and was very labour intensive! The big timber companies used the fact that untreated timber was allowed under our existing NZ Standard as we had been using it in early years IE Rimu and the rough sawn framing, that was in the old old bungalows etc! They convinced the BIA that if kept under a certain percentage untreated pine would be ok. The BIA excepted this, much to the dismay of damn near all builders in the trade.

This was about money and money alone and the BIA as our controlling authority simply fucked up! Failed us and Joe public And the DBH and Govt should front up, pay for their cock up and fix it! The BIA created the game, the rules and the result!

Combine this with Harditex and the poly systems that relied on the paint layer to keep them waterproof. These systems sat against framing that had no resistance to the moisture that now migrated into it when you didnt paint your house every five years or had a little leak! And if you don't paint it your liable as the owner for creating the leaky home! oh I cant wait for homeowners to claim against previous home owners because they owned a house for 8 years and didn't paint it, therefore causing the leaky home! Any twit could have told you kiwis don't religiously paint their homes every 5 years but the BIA & Branz permitted these systems and the untreated framing under.

So you had framing that was doomed if not under a certain percentage and cladding systems that wouldn't keep the water out unless they where 1000% correctly installed and kept up by successive owners for all time!

The whole situation became a big cock up your paying the price for it, created by the BIA now the DBH!

We now have a situation that if you have a leaking window you don't go to your builder and get it fixed for 3k you go to your lawyer and he fires of a scatter gun at all involved over the last 10 years that costs over 200K and your home goes on the leaky homes register.
Why does this cost so much? Well lawyers fees and the fact that the councils refuse to inspect these dwellings and require engineering companies like Prendos to certify them when being repatriated. Why? One reason! to use the engineers professional indemnity insurance to take liability off the councils. Only one reason for this its "Risk Limitation" and who is paying for it! well you are!! Why do they cost so much to be repatriated? Because the structure has failed, not just the weathertightness.

Mark my words registration and the way I hear the new rules are being fabricated to get the councils and the DBH out of any liability are going to make things worse not better! I dare you to find the one in thousand sole trader, independent building practitioner that certified your house 9 years down the track! As I understand Councils are asking for personal Names as the architect or builder on plans, LTD company protection is gone. there's talk even working for a boss in a large firm the individual architect will be personally liable. The lawyers are already dictating things based on risk liability! Not whats right or wrong for the NZ home owners and the NZ housing industry. Its not about doing a good job for the councils and DBH its about shifting responsibility! Because the DBH is largely responsible for this situation!

Independent Licensed building practitioners cannot guarantee there own work (if this happens)! This system will fail and who will pay the price you! There is already talk of putting everything into trusts and simply going belly up if the shit hits the fan! By the good builders who try to do a good job and oh my watch out for the rough buggers doing this deliberately! And what happens when the next cladding system is launched by some multi national company and it fails??
Councils and the DBH jointly are into risk limitation and risk limitation alone! Not doing whats best for joe blow public home owner and the future of NZ's housing stock IMHO!

We need a well versed and intelligent, responsible, liable, controlling authority!
This industry cannot self govern!

As an architectural designer I'm seriously thinking of getting out! Even if my plans are perfect I still have no control over what goes on onsite! And even if I can prove (after big ligation) I'm in the clear and the faults not mine, the cost of said litigation is a deal breaker! There is a number of designers, and builders looking to leave this industry we simply don't have the money, time or power to fight the bureaucrats and we see great danger for us, you, and our industry in the new game that the DBH are manufacturing and what lies ahead!

I certainly wouldn't be urging my kids to become architects or builders.
If I was building as a home owner I'd certainly be going steel frame!

[Swoop]

As an architectural designer I'm seriously thinking of getting out!

I know of an architect in Palmy who has left the game. Simply too much shit involved now... dealing with the council and their bunch of public-servant idiots being top of the list.

[Reckless]

OK What I heard!

Was talkin to a Builder of large volume that that builds new homes and does extensive renovation work!

I couldn't believe what I was being told?

He is sending quantities of timber back to his supplier! Its already has mold on it from new!
According to rumor???
Timbers Suppliers are trying to dip timber in retail packs!
Therefore the outer timber is treated and as you go into the packs the inner timber is either getting very little or is untreated??
I'd guess the timber companies are producing and packing untreated timber then dipping it once its due for shipping!
I'd imagine these packs are sitting in yards for long periods untreated (before they are dipped) and I'd guess that dipping pre-packed packs is a failed system?

So its still happening folks "how treated" does that stamp on the side of your timber really mean??

Are you seeing this Flyingcroc??