Leaky homes are all just a fairytale

[Reckless]

I know of an architect in Palmy who has left the game. Simply too much shit involved now... dealing with the council and their bunch of public-servant idiots being top of the list.

Personally swoop I do have a certain amount of sympathy for the councils and rough work practices aside??
Oh shit now that brings up another whole can of worms! Who has controlled the industry, the training of apprentices, updating skills programs, certification etc etc etc

Oh the BIA of coarse! Where are they now?

But back to my answer to you! The councils are last man standing mate, I do feel for them a bit. As I said previously we all thought we where doing the best we could with what we had at the time!
I can understand how councils have got paranoid about this whole shambles!

It is a systemic breakdown covering Industry standards, training, industry skills, failed products, failed cladding systems, failed training for these systems, failed structural components, that should have been controlled at the source long before councils or you and I ever got involved.

All allowed by the Govt.

Have I got the answer no.
Am I shitting about houses I have built-yes.
Also houses I have designed, others have built and I have had nothing to do with since the plans where lodged-yes.
Would you get out reading the above?

I have been very lucky I did a Harditex job 25 (or more) years ago! I got caught with the pricing it big time as I thought I could join the sheets up the side of windows etc. Then had to spend heaps of time cutting sheets around windows, buying more etc.
I also simply couldn't see how you could nail this product hard to framing with a bit of foam under the joint then have the plaster not crack and leak when the building expanded and contracted! I've never touched the stuff since!
I have done a few chilly bin houses, insulclad and rocote! But never knew it relied solely on the paint for weathertightness! I think we all thought the plaster had enough polymers in to do the job with minimal paint??

and I have only designed one house with parapets!
An old builder always told me NEVER put your water line inside your building line!
He even hated the internal gutter/fascia we where all using because it was the fashion at the time!

I have been building for many years designing for the last 15 years he was right!

Now there is no building goin on?? Recession, industry has bad rep, customers are weary, wonder why there's very little work out there at present!

ha if I had any atm I'd not be wasting my day on kiwibiker lol!!

[flyingcrocodile46]

I typed..... a truckload of accurate observations

An excellent analysis of the bigger picture

He is sending quantities of timber back to his supplier! Its already has mold on it from new!
According to rumor???
Timbers Suppliers are trying to dip timber in retail packs!
Therefore the outer timber is treated and as you go into the packs the inner timber is either getting very little or is untreated??
I'd guess the timber companies are producing and packing untreated timber then dipping it once its due for shipping!
I'd imagine these packs are sitting in yards for long periods untreated and I'd guess that dipping pre-packed packs is a failed system?

So its still happening folks "how treated" does that stamp on the side of your timber really mean??

Are you seeing this Flyingcroc??

see bottom paragraph in quoted section below (Pinched from www.insights.co.nz) which describes the Boron diffusion process. The process is usually carried out by the mills rather than the "timber supplier"/reseller.
Block treatment isn't new. As long as the correct moisture content is established at treatment time and it is dipped for the correct duration, wrapped and allowed sufficient standing time, it is a proven method of chemical delivery.

It may be that the timber in question was subject to establishment of sap stain fungi prior to milling, as it leaves a visible stain that might be considered to look like mold. It is usually rejected during grading but as most grading is by machine stress grading rather than visual sorting, I guess it is more likely to slip through the system from time to time.

The filleting process you described may be used immediately after treatment as part of a full air drying process (employed rather than kiln drying to dry the timber down to to prevailing natural MC of dry timber as applicable to the season.. usually somewhere between 18 to 24%ish) but is not typically used these days due to handling costs, covered storage space and time.

Preservation Processes
There are a number of types of treatment techniques utilised in wood preservation:
Pressure Impregnation - uses vacuum and pressure to obtain chemical penetration of permeable timbers, while controlling the amount of preservative retained. The timber must be free of stain and have a moisture content of less than 25%. Many treatment schedules are used, the pressure fluctuations and timing being distinctive in each.
The Bethell process is the most important of the treatment processes and achieves about 90% of the theoretical maximum uptake in radiata pine. The Lowry treatment is designed to achieve maximum penetration with a low retention of preservative. Retention is around the 60% of theoretical maximum. The Rueping process is used principally with preservative suspended in hot oil such as creosote and PCP where a low net retention is desired for some hazard categories. Net retention here is as low as 40-50%. The Alternating Pressure method utilises repeat applications of pressure and vacuum to force preservative into green wood.
Vapour Phase - utilises the fact that some Boron esters boil at low temperatures. The liberated gas can be drawn into timber where it reacts with water and condenses. For this reason, timber must be very dry (<5-6% moisture content) or only low penetration is achieved. Treatment of framing timber in the drying kiln is possible and can offer considerable cost savings.
Vacuum treatments - utilise volatile organic solvents to transport the preservative into the wood. It is designed to treat dry profiled or machined wood. TBTO is typically used, being introduced to the timber by either a double vacuum or low pressure cycle. The advantage of this technique is that there is no dimensional swelling as associated aqueous treatments and the wood can be painted within a couple of days of treatment.
Diffusion - is used to introduce boron salts to green timber. The timber is sprayed or dipped in the preservative solution and block stacked (without fillets). The wood is then tightly wrapped and left for a number of weeks during which the boron salts diffuse into the wood. Thicker timber may require a second dip to top up the salt levels. For this technique to be successful the timber must have a moisture content of over 50%. If even just the timber surface dries out, the process may not work at all, or be uneconomically slow. Another method using the diffusion process is called double diffusion. This works in the same manner except two successive chemical treatments are used. The second chemical treatment (Na²Cr²O7/Na²CrO⁴ and Na²HasO⁴) precipitates with the first (CuSO⁴) to form a non-leachable preservative.

[avgas]

that's nothing.

You wait until you want a mine inspected.

There used to be a whole department dedicated to that.......

And now we have dead people.

[Reckless]

[QUOTE=flyingcrocodile46;1130152043]An excellent analysis of the bigger picture

Thanks mate at least some of us are on the same page but can we do anything? Have we the time money are desire in our little worlds? Maybe we should? But I doubt it will make a difference there many men funded by our tax dollars and our rates dollars changing things to suit their agendas.

About the timber I understand he sends quite a bit of timber back and from his description he knew genuine timber deterioration when he saw it. But I will re ask the question hopefully he has some plan work for me so I will be talking to him again?

Thanks for correcting me on the Diffusion thing I thought it had to be fillet stacked and repacked? DUH! But its the time sitting under wrap to diffuse that killed the process. IMHO Diffusion Boric treated timber was by far the best to use. Would it also have rotted under Harditex yeh probably. Is the home I mentioned we built 25 years ago a rotting mess now yeh probably?? Am I being called a rough builder because I used the methods/systems of the day to the best of my ability? yeh probably?

I know my opinions and posts probably seem a bit cynical? But I worry about whats happening with the future of our industry over the next few years!
The saving grace may be that anti plaster feelings and cavities may save the day!

Although rumors abound that these new manufactured weatherboards that are allowed to be painted dark dark colours are blowing up in some instances. One case where the weatherboard was all good but so much heat was absorbed by the dark painted wall the framing twisted badly? Go figure LOL!!
ah well time will tell with this one to aye??

I have a mate doing leaky homes. His boss buys and sells them. I understand they put nothing but timber weatherboards on as a reclad.

This thread doesn't look very popular but for those that may read it.
My humble opinion
Roofing:
Use anything, Concrete tiles, colorsteel or stone chip tiles all good these days.

Cladding: Timber weatherboards or brick
If you want plaster build in blocks or use brick seconds and plaster over.
Stick to the tried and true!
If you must use a newer cladding system ie Linea etc use a cavity! Even if your risk matrix says you don't need it! Its only a days work and a few meters of baton.

Oh and steel framing its the thing of the future and very economical!
Roofers are tech screwing on most products and Builders are gluing and screwing damn near everything on the inside now so not much of a change to use a screw gun for the rest of it!

My 2c

[Clockwork]

This thread doesn't look very popular but for those that may read it.
My humble opinion
Roofing:
Use anything, Concrete tiles, colorsteel or stone chip tiles all good these days.

Cladding: Timber weatherboards or brick
If you want plaster build in blocks or use brick seconds and plaster over.
Stick to the tried and true!
If you must use a newer cladding system ie Linea etc use a cavity! Even if your risk matrix says you don't need it! Its only a days work and a few meters of baton.

Oh and steel framing its the thing of the future and very economical!
Roofers are tech screwing on most products and Builders are gluing and screwing damn near everything on the inside now so not much of a change to use a screw gun for the rest of it!

My 2c

Cheers for this. I have a steel frame/brick house about 2 years old. All good so far (just hoping rust it doesn't become an issue in future)

The only issue I have with the steel frame so far is that it's a bugger to get around the roof space. It really needs some sort of deck laid up there for you to crawl on.

[Reckless]

Cheers for this. I have a steel frame/brick house about 2 years old. All good so far (just hoping rust it doesn't become an issue in future)

The only issue I have with the steel frame so far is that it's a bugger to get around the roof space. It really needs some sort of deck laid up there for you to crawl on.

As I understand it Clockwork there is a 50 year warranty with steel from the manufacturer. Don't think you get any with timber?
Rust? as I understand it as long as you don't use heat to cut Galv steel, it wont rust! The Galv migrates over snip cut edges and the Galv screws into holes drilled through galv steel form a complete galv situation in there own right.

I understand there is steel framing sitting outside in the grass, on a site in Christchurch from a project that ran out of money. It's been there 8 years and is still ok!

I'm researching getting into steel framing atm!

Roof space ha yes the sharp edges on the bottom Chords of the trusses face upwards. LOL!!!

Mind you you can do 8m lintels, joists and trusses! Can't do that in timber!

Question for you?
Is there any noise from the framing when the house expands/contracts or gets hit by a good gust of wind?
You on a slab or did they use steel floor joists as well??

TIA mate

[Clockwork]

The house is single story and sits on a slab. No noises associated with expansion, although there is something loose just above the master bedroom that rattles a bit (when a good Wellington gust hits from just the right direction)

The noisiest thing is the light weight tin/tile roof in a heavy rain. I reckon they could use some sort of coating on the inside to deaden the noise a little, give them a little mass. That said I was more than happy to have a very light frame and roof when you consider we live in an earthquake prone part of the world.

We have considered an upstairs extention but I haven't yet learned if there are any issues associated with retro-fitting to a steel fame.

[Reckless]

The house is single story and sits on a slab. No noises associated with expansion, although there is something loose just above the master bedroom that rattles a bit (when a good Wellington gust hits from just the right direction)

The noisiest thing is the light weight tin/tile roof in a heavy rain. I reckon they could use some sort of coating on the inside to deaden the noise a little, give them a little mass. That said I was more than happy to have a very light frame and roof when you consider we live in an earthquake prone part of the world.

We have considered an upstairs extension but I haven't yet learned if there are any issues associated with retro-fitting to a steel fame.

The something lose is most likely the roofing underlay flapping at the eave under the strength of a good gust! Shit how to i describe it?? ok Best I can come up with is the sound of maybe sticking a piece of plastic into a spinning bicycle wheel? Best I can do there mate

HA got the right guy here! Second story transformations are my specialty to be honest LOL!!
An addition will be easier in steel because the large spans steel joists can achieve over timber mean the load points I would normally have to transfer down through the lower floor are greatly reduced. Cant see to many other issues a good pair of tin snips wouldn't fix

[flyingcrocodile46]

The govt's Funding Assistance Package (or FAP as it is appropriately named).

For those considering accepting the FAP package and then later pursuing other parties such as Councils (not part of the FAP deal or who didn't issue a CCC), or designers, Builders etc. Be aware that as part of the FAP agreement you must withdraw your existing claim (WHRS or high court).

On the surface that may not appear so bad as you may think you can simply file a new claim against those other parties, but (and here's the kicker).. The reverse time clock for the statutes of limitations starts from the date of the new claim. You can not use the original claim date as the starting point. Most existing claims are made within the last of the 10 years of the limitation so in most instances a new claim will be ruled out of time and declined.

Just so you are aware.

Particularly those considering accepting the package based on only the 25% Govt contribution (which with all the constraints and hoops, will likely only cover the resulting budget/cost shortfalls).