Benefits

[FJRider]

Don't those who don't do the job usually get sacked? So not paying a decent wage is encouraging people to do it for the love of it? the theory behind making people do something for their dole is ridiculous (even though I agree with you on that, apart from the making them bit). Why not make those who get any form govt benefit, including businesses, do the same thing. Why just those on the dole? Because they're doing nothing? I thought they had an obligation to be out job hunting? Twice (and some) as hard for the parents that they were targetting.

It is actually quite difficult for employers to sack an employee ... and could be liable for thousands of $$$$ if they get it wrong ...
Verbal ... then written warnings must be given for sackable offences ... not unsatisfactory ... or unliked ... behaviour and work practices ...

One "job applicant" I saw in a firm I worked for ... had a form the "prospective employer" had to sign ... to prove a job there had been applied for. He even ADMITTED he didn't want the job, but was qualified to do it ... just didn't want it ....
and was basicly ... collecting signatures ...

[Ocean1]

I trained on less than minimum wage, it's called an apprenticeship, I now own a business.

Ditto. I think I started on about ¼ of what a journeyman got, which seemed right then. It seems right now, apprentices don’t actually earn a business anything, what small contribution they make is more than offset by the loss of the tradesmen’s time in teaching them. A lot of my mates got semi-skilled jobs paying twice what I got. That hasn't been the case with any of them for several decades. I used to say that apprentices were an investment in the company's future, but they rarely stick around long enough to make that believable.

I have gone out of my way to help a few that have no quals to get a start, sure it's a package from WINZ, but without that I wouldn't be able to afford to do it.

Also ditto. And, like me, I know many businessmen who have given it a good shot and given up. Small technically focused enterprises can’t afford unskilled labour, (and that describes a bloody big hunk of NZ business). Also, unfortunately “unskilled” and “labour” are the best you can hope for from WINZ.

[mashman]

But isn't making me pay for them to sit on the dole setting a bad precedent?
And just to be clear I am including all benefits.

heh, I removed that from my previous post before posting... yes, it does... but the alternatives to paying dole are probably much more expensive, financially and socially and we know that the govts these days don't like shelling out any more than they have to when it comes to those on the bottom of the pile. There's no real financial incentive to get off their arse and do anything... an argument that is constantly used when discussing a "free" NZ.

Does all benefits include tax relief?

[Ocean1]

I guess if you're working for less than minimum wage, getting access to the funding required to gain the quals isn't going to be possible?

Five years after belatedly sitting school cert my neighbour had held down a full time job while raising three kids by herself and got her masters, tell her it can't be done.

[mashman]

It is actually quite difficult for employers to sack an employee ... and could be liable for thousands of $$$$ if they get it wrong ...
Verbal ... then written warnings must be given for sackable offences ... not unsatisfactory ... or unliked ... behaviour and work practices ...

One "job applicant" I saw in a firm I worked for ... had a form the "prospective employer" had to sign ... to prove a job there had been applied for. He even ADMITTED he didn't want the job, but was qualified to do it ... just didn't want it ....
and was basicly ... collecting signatures ...

Fair point. I know that needs to change. I would like to have thought that continual lack of productivity, ignoring warnings, would be grounds for sacking... given that it's costing money to carry a "useless" employee an' all. I guess "they're" worried that there'd be shitloads of people on the dole

There's a place for career shy people (and eternal students). I see no point in fighting it as they'll always be there... or in jail. We need to keep coughing up until something changes... and it won't be "them". Hey-ho. Nothing's changed.

[mashman]

Five years after belatedly sitting school cert my neighbour had held down a full time job while raising three kids by herself and got her masters, tell her it can't be done.

I'm not saying it can't be done as I've done it myself, albeit part time jobs and 1 kid and only a degree... but the cost of education and the cost of "living" has changed dramatically in the last 5 years, let alone the last 20ish since I did my yards. Uni fees have just been hiked again (just Auck?), "assistance" has been cut back and who really wants 20k's worth of debt before they've even started? Especially if when they're qualified they're only gonna earn about 30k? My debt was about 13k (5 years to pay it off) and my parents Uni debt (dad late 20's, mum early 30's) was 0k. Things have changed a hell of a lot. Not only has the cost of living risen, so has the cost of education... and there's no "guarantee" that you'll get a job any more. Sure it can still be done, but I doubt I'd take it on these days.

[Ocean1]

I'm not saying it can't be done as I've done it myself, albeit part time jobs and 1 kid and only a degree... but the cost of education and the cost of "living" has changed dramatically in the last 5 years, let alone the last 20ish since I did my yards.

I agree. One thing we probably both agree on is the importance of free education for everyone, not just the rich. Not just those with a comunity services card either. Free health too, again; the most cost effective care and drugs, free for all, without the distortions that generations of politicians and lobbyists have caused.

[mashman]

I agree. One thing we probably both agree on is the importance of free education for everyone, not just the rich. Not just those with a comunity services card either. Free health too, again; the most cost effective care and drugs, free for all, without the distortions that generations of politicians and lobbyists have caused.

Nope, totally disagree with you there . Aye, spot on. I suppose it's too hard to keep gearing education policy towards the needs of the country?... let alone training and looking after the health your workforce free of charge. Hardly surprising that people feck off overseas once qualified. To return when they need their pension

[Ocean1]

I suppose it's too hard to keep gearing education policy towards the needs of the country?...

It'll remain too hard as long as we continue to allow politicians to buy votes. There's more important things to focus on than trying to steal enough from the "rich" to pay the "poor" the same.

[mashman]

It'll remain too hard as long as we continue to allow politicians to buy votes. There's more important things to focus on than trying to steal enough from the "rich" to pay the "poor" the same.

Steal ... you're right though, there's no political innovation anymore, just copy what the other country did even if the policy didn't work (socially). I'd say the distribution of wealth is at the heart of most issues these days though (shame a huge amount of it ends up overseas), and then it's used as a tool for kickin either the rich or poor. Although there are those on both sides who deserve a kickin. Everything costs too money eh ... research, feasibility, compliance, legality, audit etc... aaaaaand yet policies still fail to make a positive mark on the way things are. It may well not be easy, but I'd rather pay more tax and move forwards than pay more tax and either be going nowhere or going very quickly backwards.

[Usarka]

Five years after belatedly sitting school cert my neighbour had held down a full time job while raising three kids by herself and got her masters, tell her it can't be done.

Three possible excusese for someone who's unable to find work:

• It can't be done
• I can't do it
• I don't want to do it

Trouble is that the majority of "bludgers" don't think like you, me or your neighbour. The biggest problem with these debates is we assume others think and deal with things in the same way. A lot of people are simply stupid, have a mental illness or brain injury, or haven't learned how to do what it takes. They don't think like your neighbour, and I'm not sure if you can force them too (especially if it's the "I can't do it").

With our obscenely high rate of child abuse in this country I wonder how many of our kids grow up with hidden brain injuries and how this affects their ability to cope with these things.

[FJRider]

... Hardly surprising that people feck off overseas once qualified. To return when they need their pension

Or NOT ... depending on how much they owe on their student loan ...

[Ocean1]

Three possible excusese for someone who's unable to find work:

• It can't be done
• I can't do it
• I don't want to do it

Trouble is that the majority of "bludgers" don't think like you, me or your neighbour. The biggest problem with these debates is we assume others think and deal with things in the same way. A lot of people are simply stupid, have a mental illness or brain injury, or haven't learned how to do what it takes. They don't think like your neighbour, and I'm not sure if you can force them too (especially if it's the "I can't do it").

With our obscenely high rate of child abuse in this country I wonder how many of our kids grow up with hidden brain injuries and how this affects their ability to cope with these things.

It really doesn't matter what the reason is, or how they think. If their childhood, (however long) didn't teach them what behaviour returns positive dividends then they're never going to be a contributor to the economy. Until relatively recently such people simply died, later if their family supported them, earlier if they didn't.

You can at least find the answer to your question with a modicum of effort. But answer me this: How much has the last few decades of artificial comunity-based support for the naturally non-viable degraded the average performance of the current gene pool? And how many more non-performers are now required to be supported by a correspondingly smaller portion of the population as a result?

[scumdog]

But answer me this: How much has the last few decades of artificial comunity-based support for the naturally non-viable degraded the average performance of the current gene pool? And how many more non-performers are now required to be supported by a correspondingly smaller portion of the population as a result?

I have made that comment a few times at social events.

And some people look at me as if I'm some sort of monster.

But I'm right.

[FJRider]

I have made that comment a few times at social events.

And some people look at me as if I'm some sort of monster.

But I'm right.

But the increase in the Community work sentances, awarded by the courts ... should even it out somewhat ... shouldn't it ... ???