Benefits

[shrub]

This is a can of worms, and i want to try and avoid a left vs right slanging match so i'd appreciate thought before posting.

Benefits are an important part of our society because they are intended to provide a safety net when the wheels fall off life, but I think everyone would agree that things aren't working well. There are 2nd and 3rd generation "career' beneficiaries out there right now, with more following them, and that is wrong on a hell of a lot of levels, so what do we do?

Shit happened in my life a couple of times, and I have been on the DPB and on the dole, and I have to say it really sucks. The money is appalling - I budgetted my arse off, but still never had enough for anything beyond the basics and I got in the habit of checking my bank balance before I bought gas or groceries. I hated when the conversation at parties got to "so, what do you do for a job?" and I hated having to answer to DSW as they were then and sitting in the waiting area surrounded by other beneficiaries. I can't for the life of me see how ANYONE would actually choose to live like that, yet people do that for their whole lives. For me there was always a light at the end of the tunnel, but for a lot of people that tunnel is one way only, and I can't begin to imagine how fucked up that must feel.

It's bad for society - we have hundreds of thousands of people sitting on their arses, and that's kind of like pulling one plug lead off a bike engine. How much stronger would our economy be if even half of them had a job? They would earn and spend more, they would produce shit that could be exported or used here, do stuff that needs doing etc Crime would drop and hospital costs would drop as well as lower benefit payments.

So what do we do? Sit back and demand Pavlova Bennet gets tough and hands out cards controlling where people spend their money? Or make it harder to go on a benefit and stay on one? Nice idea, and pretty simple to do, but if the dole is harder to get or less, will Johnny Benneficiary decide "ah fuck it, the pricks have taken away my dole, I'll go and get a job"?

Do we go back to the days of the MOW and Railways where there were jobs for anyone and everyone? I can still remember my headmaster telling me that if I didn't lift my game I'd only ever work for the MOW because that was as bad as it got. The idea has merit because having work is good for you, getting a wage means you have more to spend (more tax, more economic activity etc), but it's a huge move from where we have been heading since the 80s, and where will the money come from?

Do we introduce mentors for kids in 2nd and 3rd generation benefit homes to help them get their act together? I remember a few years ago my neighbour's son was working on his car, and we got to talking about how much he loved fixing cars. I asked why he didn't do an apprenticeship and he looked at me "how do you get one of them?" I talked him through doing pre-trade training at tech, then what an apprenticeship was and where it would take him. He was interested and keen, but got distracted by weed and loser mates, and I sometimes wish I had kicked his arse until he got off it, but I was busy and had other shit to worry about.

Buggered if I know what the answer is, but there has to be one.

[Jantar]

Tough topics need tough decisons and when it comes to benefits there is none tougher. At present the benfits are too low, but there are too many people claiming them. If the number of beneficiaries could be reduced then the payout could be increased without costing the taxpayer any more, and maybe even make a saving.

My personal opinion is that we need to look at the reasons that these benefits were introduced and get back to the basics.

Superannuation: (Yes I'm only a few years away from retiring age, so this affects me as well.) The universal superannuation was introduced when the average life span was 72 for men and 75 for women. It was collectable at age 65. This age was later dropped to 60, and then increased back to 65. The average age span is now 78 for men and 80 for women, so I would have no difficulty in seeing the age for universal superannuation raised to 67.

Unemployment: This was introduced so that a working man who for some reason is put off from his job would have a basic income while searching for a new job. It wasn't there as a wage for teenagers leaving school. So lets make this simple. No-one can apply for the dole until they have paid income tax. (ie they have been in paid employment). The amount of time they can be on the dole is limited to 10% of the amount of time that they have been in paid employment. This would stop anyone from coming straight out of school and onto the dole.

DPB: This was introduced to assist the mother who's husband had suddenly departed the marriage. It was to tide her over that difficult period where she couldn't work to support herself while staying home to raise the children. It wasn't designed to allow teenage girls to get pregnant and have the child's future paid for by the taxpayer. So lets make the DPB only payable in those cases where a women has already been in a form of marriage (or civil union) and that relationship has broken up. Sorry girls; if you are only 16 and get pregnant at high school, either put the baby up for adoption, or let your parents pay to raise the child.

oK. I'm ready for the flames.

[James Deuce]

Jantar's awesome post.

Brilliant. I'm all for that with one caveat. Don't whip it out from under those who got on it under the conditions listed that won't be applicable in future.

[pzkpfw]

I'd like to see able-bodied people on benefits doing something.

They don't all spend all their time looking for or training for work, and in some cases there just aren't "real" jobs for them.

Picking up rubbish, gardening for old folk, cleaning graffiffittti. Whatever.

I think it's going to be an unavoidable fact of life. More and more people, more and more technology, fewer and fewer people needed.

[Taz]

I think it's going to be an unavoidable fact of life. More and more people, more and more technology, fewer and fewer people needed.

And this will cause the collapse of society. All great empires come to an end eventually.

[SimJen]

trouble is young kids of today feel they are owed something by society.
They see their heroes: Rappers, Sports stars, Actors etc raking in many millions for doing sweet FA and wonder why it is they can't have all that.
Waiting on the dole for the big time to hit, so they can become a professional bmx'er or skateboarder, or musician or drifter (in the car sense).
I'm all for tighter controls on getting the dole in the first place, Jantar has some good points!
I'd like to see it not being an option for school leavers!
I pay income protection insurance to protect me and my family/mortgage. I can't see myself ever needing a government handout, but if the shit really hit the fan it would be nice if there was something for me if I really needed it! Although I've paid tax for the last 20+ years! so its expected!

[shrub]

No-one can apply for the dole until they have paid income tax. (ie they have been in paid employment).

I like that idea, maybe if more people realised that working was actually pretty good and wages were a hell of a lot better than the dole it would no longer be seen as an alternative to work. The problem is there aren't enough jobs, so does that mean kids leave school without any form of income?

How's this for an idea: We make paid training schemes (quasi apprenticeships) available so if johnny leaves school with no work he can get on a 3 month scheme learning how to drive a forklift, and if he passes well and demonstrates a high level of attendance (never late or absent without a medical cert, and for no more than 2% of the course) the state subsidises him into a job. Maybe he doesn't drive a forklift at his new work, and all he does is sweep the floor, but as long as he turns up every day and works hard he gets a wage and his employer has a commitment to train and develop him. And for some of the kids a mentor could be available to meet once or twice a week (even over a beer) to check things were going well and work with the employer so he gets his needs met.

[SimJen]

The problem is there aren't enough jobs, so does that mean kids leave school without any form of income?

There are jobs if you look, its just some folks aren't willing to drop there sights. If I needed a job i'd work anywhere to support my family! Most aren't willing to "Settle" on a supermarket job or other low end work!
I work in the Steel Fabrication trade and we are always looking for guys. Problem is the vast majority who apply have several issues:
1. they have no CV
2. they have no experience
3. they often don't turn up to the interview or are late
4. biggest of all they are just plain unemployable!

[mashman]

I understand why someone would choose to be a doley. Sorry you didn't enjoy the experience. The pay may well be shit, but the hours are great (especially where there's kids involved) .

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Just because there is a job sitting there waiting for someone to do it, doesn't mean it's gonna get done, especially if the pay is shit and the hours don't suit

As for the way forwards. Cutting benefits off fully or partially will do more damage than good to those who are "legitimately" struggling (but fuck'em we'll catch some benefit cheats), ... let alone the social fallout etc... There is no way forwards whilst we're looking for the cause of the issue, which is OBVIOUS. There aren't enough jobs for everyone. More productive technology, tight budgets, ever changing "markets" etc.. have made certain of that... and in such a competitive and ever expensive marketplace, I can't see where these jobs are going to come from?

So if there aren't enough jobs, some people WILL have to be on the dole. I'd say get over it, but I can't say it with a straight face.

I know what the answer is though

[imdying]

Why should anybody be required to work? They're not your slaves. Who declared having a job and 'being productive' as the be all end all? What's wrong with being happy with smoking weed and hanging out with your loser mates? Who gets to label them losers in the first place? Breeders and go getters? Like they're any better?

Given those things... if society wants to build and play in their little holier than thou sand pit, they're required to support those who do not. Or they'll just take it anyway.

[Taz]

There are jobs if you look, its just some folks aren't willing to drop there sights. If I needed a job i'd work anywhere to support my family! Most aren't willing to "Settle" on a supermarket job or other low end work!
I work in the Steel Fabrication trade and we are always looking for guys. Problem is the vast majority who apply have several issues:
1. they have no CV
2. they have no experience
3. they often don't turn up to the interview or are late
4. biggest of all they are just plain unemployable!

So how does the school leaver get steel fabrication experience?

[Bald Eagle]

So how does the school leaver get sheet metal fabrication experience?

De-constructing dairy / liqour store roller doors ?

[Str8 Jacket]

trouble is young kids of today feel they are owed something by society.
They see their heroes: Rappers, Sports stars, Actors etc raking in many millions for doing sweet FA and wonder why it is they can't have all that.

And in some ways I think that this is a problem. The "stars" actually put in a hell of alot of hours if they want to be successful. They often have to make personal sacrifices that some of us couldn't imagine making in orde to be successful, it just LOOKS easy.....

Parents have to be to blame in some cases but not all cases. You can lead a horse to water etc etc

I agree with your hand-out mentality and believe that this may have come about from this Nanny state we are/ have created. Laziness is easy and let's be honest work aint all that glamorous in any shape or form.

Jantar's post say's it all really.

[shrub]

There are jobs if you look, its just some folks aren't willing to drop there sights. If I needed a job i'd work anywhere to support my family! Most aren't willing to "Settle" on a supermarket job or other low end work!
I work in the Steel Fabrication trade and we are always looking for guys. Problem is the vast majority who apply have several issues:
1. they have no CV
2. they have no experience
3. they often don't turn up to the interview or are late
4. biggest of all they are just plain unemployable!

How can you drop your sights from the dole? I agree though, people need to be willing to do anything, and a few years ago a business I owned got in the shit so I stood outside a nightclub from 11.00 pm until 0400 all weekend dealing with drunks and morons (on the bright side women love bouncers...).

My daughter is 18, very well presented and outgoing. She has done barrista training off her own bat and has visited every cafe, every restaurant, fast food dump and supermarket in the area with her CV, and has a 2 monthly call cycle. She has been doing that for nearly 6 months and has had about a weeks casual work out of it because she has no experience and there are a hundred other school kids doing the same thing.

making people employable and giving them experience is the key - and that includes having a CV and turning up on time. Some of them just don't know that shit, so teach them and mentor them. If they continue to drop out - 3 strikes and you're on your own with a card that allows you to attend a kitchen for 3 healthy and simple meals a day.

[avgas]

Perhaps I am just cold and heartless. But for me its simple.

Work or Die.

You want support? Get married or live at home - why should society be your crutch. You are a man/women of your own decisions........you make bad ones you should be fucked the arse. Not everyone else. It was your decision.

If the govt really wants to help, customize a job for every person. Get the wheelchair enabled behind a desk, the retards picking up rubbish and the mums delivering powerbills. Its not all rocket science.

Max benefit payment made in a row is 5 weeks. That is all the rest of us get before we lose all our money.