That was the gist of itOriginally Posted by Clockwork
Highway Biker
That was the gist of it
Forum whore
This, coming from someone in ChCh......
“- He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.”
Just faidin away!
I think perhaps what happened after the treaty that Pakeha (pushy) dominance probably took over because Maori culture (perhaps influenced by the ravages of things like the flue epidemic etc?) caused Maori to step back and allow this to happen.
Unfortunately Maori were lead astray by the Labour party, promising much and delivering little that Maori wanted/needed.
They will have to be wary of that by the National party too, or they will fall into the same trap!
Right now Maori are stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility for their share of governing the country through the Maori and Mana parties!
It is interesting observing Pakeha reaction to this, it is not unlike the behaviour of a lot of parents when their children start to grow up and think for themselves, the parents feel threatened and are afraid of losing control.
Pakeha (IMO) do appear to feel threatened by the Maori emergence and that seems to be the driver of some of their negative responses when Maori make a stand on various things that are important to them!
You say,
At present we feel shut out BECAUSE the European-derived cultures stop us living our culture.
I don't entirely agree with that, I think it is more a hangup from the past that Maori still believe to be so, rather than actually being true!
Of course if that is your perception, then it will be your reality and only you can control that!
From my own position in the Pakeha world, Pakeha feel that they have have really tried to help Maori to overcome the difficulties that are perceived to be caused by the Pakeha influence!
There are parts of Maori (and Pakeha) behaviour, rather than culture, that cause Pakeha in particular to be afraid and because Maori appear to defend this as "culture" Pakeha get pissed off and then we all start slinging racist slogans at each other and away it all goes again!
Overall for a small and young country, I believe that we have got a lot to be proud of and despite a small highly vocal minority, race relations in this country are bloody good.
Anarchic Wild Child
I pretty much agree with you. I think we are a very young country going through birth pangs ... The Anglo-Saxons of Britain (most of us have ancestors from there) are a mix of Picts, Jutes, Celts (Briton, Eire and Scotland were all Celtic), Romans, Angles, Saxons, French (Normans), with a number of other groups such as the Vikings, Spanish, other Germanic groups .. etc etc
They now see themselves as one people - Anglo-Saxons, ... but at various times they have all fought the invaders .. (and they are named after invading populations - Angles and Saxons) ...whom they have now become ... and they have issues with the current "invaders" from the former colonies
The same thing is happening here ... it's just we are around 200 years old .. Roman occupied Britain for far longer than that alone ..
I disagree that our feeling of being "shut out" is a perception. It's demonstrably true. New Zealanders generally value their European-derived ceremonies but devalue ours (see the discussion above for an example). Look at people like Don Brash's reactiom to Māori cultural actions and requirements ... it's all his way of No Way ...
Things are changing - but do need to change more. Pāehā NZ doesn't have to fight to get its ways of doing things occuring - we have to fight every day to get our way of doign things to happen. We should not have to ...
We fighting to keep our language .. marx said that a peope which does not speak their own language do not exist as a people - only as an adjunct to another group ... we want to exist as a people - we need to speak our own language to do that .. but look at the opposition to that (and expressions of that opposition will surely follow this post ... just as day follows night.)
This bit I will respond to
Yes - I agree. Some of our activists have no concern that they create Pākehā fears ... I sympathize with them. We have been appeasing Pākehā for many years and some of us are sick of it ..There are parts of Maori (and Pakeha) behaviour, rather than culture, that cause Pakeha in particular to be afraid and because Maori appear to defend this as "culture" Pakeha get pissed off and then we all start slinging racist slogans at each other and away it all goes again!
But it is not a helpful position at all. I think in many ways those people are responding from frustration and anger ... a thought which is pertinent to both groups ... but that's the problem for some of us - "both groups" I don't see us as two groups - we share whakapapa, we are related, we are One People .. but that's One People on Māori terms (we share whakapapa, we are related) ... that's an inclusive idea of "Us" which accomodates Māori and Pākehā - not the exclusive idea of "Us" which says act white or your outside "Us".
In the old days, when there were no Pākehā each Māori group had its own identity and culture - "Us" was the Iwi, the Hāpū or the whanau. There was no collective "Us" in this country, so there had to be accommodation for the various groups and ways of doing things - and sometimes that came to conflict and sometimes it did not - people were accommodating or not as human beings are.
A new group joining this type of accommodation was just a new group joining (happened every time a waka arrived from the islands.)
But I perceive (note the specific and intended use of that word) that the Pākehā idea of us is still the same flavour as the old colonial days - learn to be Pākehā, learn our ways, or you are not of "Us" - you are not New Zealanders.
I hope that makes sense ...
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Just faidin away!
Yes it does but I do not agree that Pakeha "resistance to amalgamating" with Maori culture is as strong as you seem to imply.
Then again Maori "resistance to cultural amalgamation" looks different from the Pakeha side of the field too!
I guess it is like the man in the cheese adds says, "good things take time"!
Meanwhile I have four grandchildren, two Pakeha and two Maori, while Iwi recognises the two Maori children as Maori, a number of self styled (lesser by %??) Maori, do not!
I guess according to Margaret Mutu one leg, an arm and a few fingers can stay the rest will have to remain as guests of Maori or go move to Australia!
Confusing isn't it!
Anarchic Wild Child
Not really - I think we largely agree on the kind of country we want to live in ... at least as far as the two cultures go ...Confusing isn't it!
Politics on the other hand ...
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Loud and Uncouth
Not this old honkie.
I would be happy to see Maori really unite and become as one.
But there's too much infighting at times, too much looking after No.1.
And the rabid anti-pakeha Maori have no trouble holding out their hand for a pakeha hand-out, they seem to want to live as 'traditional' Maori - but with the constant aid and dollars from the Pakeha, whereas other Maori are content to move on, live their lives by their own efforts.
But the worse thing is: the first type end up dragging all Maori down to their level with their rhetoric and actions and drive away support from others.
Winding up drongos, foil hat wearers and over sensitive KBers for over 14,000 posts...........
" Life is not a rehearsal, it's as happy or miserable as you want to make it"
troglodytam extraordinaire
And that is as i see it the biggest problem facing us and the ability to move forward.
I understand that European culture has had a lot longer to mature into a collective "we".
What I see is there are two things Maori want
1) the survival of their culture, and to this i totally agree with,
2) each Iwi's own land and the right to govern said land, to which i sort of agree.
But the problem i see is trying to join both these together as each individual Iwi has a different idea of what they want so a collective stance doesn't work so the issue has to be split. I have done work for a few Iwi and each have there own wants and needs and some are just so divided within themselves that its not worth the effort.
But then you get the problem of governance, and this i fear is never going to be sorted because of the balls up with the treaty and no one can decide on what to do with that.
Just faidin away!
When you say "two" cultures .... we are a multi-culture country today but for convenience I refer to Maori and Pakeha, where Pakeha refers to all "others"!
In my own experience, as children we were prevented from speaking Maori by Maori elders, they wanted their children to be fluent in English as the language of their future!
I don't think they ever thought that their own language was in danger, that became apparent later!
Maori are sorting that out pretty well nowadays IMO they are doing a good job of it too!
I have had my own arse kicked along with my mates for speaking Maori .... fact!
Politics?
When you get right down to it we are not that much different, it is mainly a matter of which gang we think can deliver the goods!
In my experience the two main parties have equal records of non delivery of anything very useful to the electorate, with exception of dumping first past the post!
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