Driving & licensing: A generation Z perspective

[Oblivion]

Learning on a 250 single is a neat way to keep all that manly throttle twisting in check. I mean, no matter how much you twist it, you wont be going insanely fast. You'll just be wasting petrol.

I've given up on car drivers. What a lost cause......

[Zedder]

I'm not sure what the total answer is because I fully believe in the mind behind the throttle as being the biggest problem but several things worked for me in the time before I got my full licence. In those days it was just a provisional before a full one.

Firstly, I had a couple of mates with dirt bikes which I got to ride in various off road situations. I think it's a very good skill to have.

Secondly, I had a couple of scares which made me cautious.

Thirdly, I saw my provisional as a licence to learn only. I renewed it twice before I had the guts to get a full one and I'm sure traffic wasn't so heavy back then.

[Scuba_Steve]

Power to weight ratio for cars as well.
-Indy

I don't think that quite works the same as bikes, do you really want them driving round in 3,4,5 tonne killing machines rather than the standard 2 tonne just because they meet power to weight ratios??? they're all capable of the speed limit & much faster, they're all gonna get there at a reasonable rate they'll only do it at a greater weight/impact

[Pseudonym]

yeh i wondered that too. Ive seen a couple of people suggest that. Frankly i think its dumb and possibly a reason for so many accidents (injury) in learner riders that you expect someone to learn good road craft in a vehicle that will fall over as soon as you stop concentrating. I dont think you can successfully learn the mechanics of motorcycle control and road awareness at the same time

...i think all riders should have held a class one first

FLAME AWAY

If you stop concentrating on a bike it can bite you.
But if you do the same in a car, where there are so many more distractions it can, and as evidence shows, will still bite you.
But the added advantage with a car is the other people you can injure or kill at the same time.
I started on a bike (about 5yo), I didn’t drive a car until I was nearly 17 and I didn’t like it.
I still don’t.

If it was compulsory to ride for two years it would weed the unlucky and stupid out.
But that happens in cars where they have friends along for the ride now anyway so statically little would change.

As for road craft, what road craft?
People read the road code before the test and never pick it up again!
Road awareness is so remote in a car in comparison to a bike you won’t learn enough driving to help that much anyway.

Riding a bike is not too removed from the pushbike you blatted about on when you were a kid.
And a few low speed offs will sharpen the concentration, bruises heal.
It’s the training, we just don’t do enough of it.
IMHO

[Indiana_Jones]

It’s the training, we just don’t do enough of it.
IMHO

Agreed.

Also an attitude shift. For most teens it's a rite of passage, which is true; But so many of them think it's their God given right to have a car/bike.

If we make it something that's hard to earn (i.e training requirements) then there's a slim hope they might actually want to keep their licences. But then again teens will be teens

-Indy

[Luckylegs]

If you stop concentrating on a bike it can bite you.
But if you do the same in a car, where there are so many more distractions it can, and as evidence shows, will still bite you.

We're talking about learners here who for the most part in the very early days are likely pootling around local streets and or perhaps commuting to work. Generally when a situation presents that the brain cant handle, what's the normal reaction... Slam the brakes on. Now if you do this in a car, it stops (you may have someone come up the arse of you but technically thats their problem). If you do this on a bike (and as is described over and over on this site) you "Grab a fistful of brake", lose the front and crash and in a lot of cases injure oneself (and bike).

...Yes I realise there are the those who will take a more boy racer approach while learning and have high speed crashes however those werent what I was referrring to in my original post and, as your post eludes to, theyre likely to do it anyway both on the bike and once allowed in a car.

I started on a bike (about 5yo), I didn’t drive a car until I was nearly 17 and I didn’t like it.
I still don’t.

Perhaps this says something about your ability, or at least mind set, then ?

If it was compulsory to ride for two years it would weed the unlucky and stupid out.

I'd have said this would do for motorcycling exactly the opposite of what is needed. The number of accidents causing injuries and deaths in motorcycles would go through the roof meaning the current ACC levy would look like loose change down the back of the sofa compared to what it would become to cover the injuries. That of courise if it wasnt scrapped or bikes werent outlawed.

As for road craft, what road craft?
People read the road code before the test and never pick it up again!

Again this perhaps speak volumes about your own abilities and/or ignorance. Roadcraft has fuck all to do with the road code. Its about an ability to read and in a lot of cases predict and respond to situations. Some of this can be taught but it is an experience thing, you have to do it repeatedly (albeit you need an open mind and need to want to do and not be a mindless drone).

Road awareness is so remote in a car in comparison to a bike you won’t learn enough driving to help that much anyway.

Bullshit. Typical biker arrogance. If a driver wants to they can become every bit as aware as a rider. Equally there are a number of riders who dont have the foggiest whats going on around them.

...It’s the training, we just don’t do enough of it.
IMHO

To finish on a positive... CANT DISAGREE WITH THIS AT ALL!!! (Both bikes and cars)

[Luckylegs]

Learning on a 250 single is a neat way to keep all that manly throttle twisting in check. I mean, no matter how much you twist it, you wont be going insanely fast. You'll just be wasting petrol.

I've given up on car drivers. What a lost cause......

time and time again though, we see that its not the throttle (and speed) that is the key, its the inability to handle things like a need to go around an object suddenly or to stop quickly that causes the noobs to have issues.

[Luckylegs]

I think it's better than learning in a vehicle that kills someone as soon as you stop concentrating, but thats the thing if your in control of a motor you should Never stop concentrating.
And I would also expect people start to learn on their own property or on "dead" roads I don't expect people to be in peak traffic 1st time out, Hell I wasn't even allowed to start the engine till I learnt where the clutch took up or where the gears were

Sounds like you had the right approach to your learning. Its the cautious (I started learning when I was old and had lost my im eighteen and bulletproof) approach i took too, but...

what you suggest strikes me as akin to the 70km/r speed limit placed on learners. This should mean that they stay off any road requiring them to do that speed. Now in my opinion this means you stay off the highways until yoiuve clocked some decent time at lower speeds. (this is the same as your back or dead roads suggestion).

But whats happened, instead of taking the opportunity this presents to learn in a safer enviroinment people want to do what they want so suggested its unfair and that it should be scrapped.

[Scuba_Steve]

Sounds like you had the right approach to your learning. Its the cautious (I started learning when I was old and had lost my im eighteen and bulletproof) approach i took too, but...

what you suggest strikes me as akin to the 70km/r speed limit placed on learners. This should mean that they stay off any road requiring them to do that speed. Now in my opinion this means you stay off the highways until yoiuve clocked some decent time at lower speeds. (this is the same as your back or dead roads suggestion).

But whats happened, instead of taking the opportunity this presents to learn in a safer enviroinment people want to do what they want so suggested its unfair and that it should be scrapped.

I can see your point but like with the 70km/h limit that should have never been, if you have the skills to hit the highways or move out from the "dead" streets into traffic you should be able, you have to take the plunge sometime but I would just suggest they get the skills before trying. Admittedly there will be people who think "they are the man" & try straight away, but in general the only one they'll be hurting is themselves & pain helps people learn quick. You cannot protect people from themselves & we need to stop trying to.
Also that's why I'd have it 2yrs so people have the time, 3months "dead"/low traffic streets, 6 months round town, the rest your out and about. Some will take less, some will take more but 2yrs should give everyone enough time to learn the bike & the road, if they haven't they probably shouldn't be using it.

[oneofsix]

I can see your point but like with the 70km/h limit that should have never been, if you have the skills to hit the highways or move out from the "dead" streets into traffic you should be able, you have to take the plunge sometime but I would just suggest they get the skills before trying. Admittedly there will be people who think "they are the man" & try straight away, but in general the only one they'll be hurting is themselves & pain helps people learn quick. You cannot protect people from themselves & we need to stop trying to.
Also that's why I'd have it 2yrs so people have the time, 3months "dead"/low traffic streets, 6 months round town, the rest your out and about. Some will take less, some will take more but 2yrs should give everyone enough time to learn the bike & the road, if they haven't they probably shouldn't be using it.

it is often not a case of wanting to move out on to the faster road but having to and do so at 70k is deadly. Also the motorway, with all traffic moving in the same direction, is often safer than the urban streets with side streets and parked cars.

[Banditbandit]

Ya'all miss an importsnt point ...

I was a rebellious teenager .. and a rebellious bike rider and car driver .. (fuck the rules, I never agreed to follow them ... )

Bikes especially (long hair, no helmet, black leathers, cut off denims, high bars, speed) .. total rebellion ... and my mates were the same .. some of us lived some of us died ...

You are never going to take away the rebellion .. just watch the shots of "boy racers" ... drunken teenage rebels ...

I'm still a rebel, even nearing 60 years old (fuck the rules, I never agreed to follow them) .. I've just learnt that true fredom comes from not coming to the attention of the authorities ... and I follow the rules required to stay out of sight ('cept when I do get caught ...)

Attitude change hell - would take a Chinese Communist style reeducation centre and heaps of brainwashing the change me ...

I'm much more with the car culture and biker crazies than with the straights ...

Leave us alone ... it's our life .. let us die if we want .. it's our life to risk ... (my only problem is the ones who do take out innocent people .. and I don't mean passengers .. who drives the car that kills them all is often a random matter .. they are all the same ...)

As the spokesman of the 1960s said ...

"White-collar conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me.
They're hoping soon my kind will drop and die,
But I'm gonna wave my freak flag high . . . HIGH!

Hah, hah
Falling mountains just don't fall on me
Point on mister Buisnessman,
You can't dress like me.
Nobody know what I'm talking about
I've got my own life to live
I'm the one that's gonna have to die
When it's time for me to die
So let me live my life the way I want to."

Hendrix, If 6 was 9

[Luckylegs]

it is often not a case of wanting to move out on to the faster road but having to and do so at 70k is deadly

nope! You do not HAVE to ride a motorbike in a +70km/r zone ever. It is purely your choice.

...Anyway, I guess its moot, as whether I agree with the decision or not its being removed anyway, so... for all the learners!

[BOGAR]

Why is it after 10 years I only have to go in to the AA, pay some money, have a photo taken and that's it? The road code has changed in that time so it should be at the least a re-sit on the test to make sure you still now the rules and the current ones at that. Otherwise it just looks like a money generating system.

[oneofsix]

nope! You do not HAVE to ride a motorbike in a +70km/r zone ever. It is purely your choice.

...Anyway, I guess its moot, as whether I agree with the decision or not its being removed anyway, so... for all the learners!

BS you tell me home to get from Parm to Welly without, actually from Parm to anywhere. And parm is too small a pond to learn to ride properly in. I had the same issue when in Plimmerton, no where to go without hitting a 70k + zone.

[Luckylegs]

BS you tell me home to get from Parm to Welly without, actually from Parm to anywhere. And parm is too small a pond to learn to ride properly in. I had the same issue when in Plimmerton, no where to go without hitting a 70k + zone.

How is it bullshit. I was very careful to word it so dick-heads like you couldnt come back with a predictable answer like yours. Re-read it.... You have choices!!!

FWIW... Those of us from civilisation are unaware of what backwater shit hole you refer to when you say 'Parm'. Perhaps put a little bit of effort in eh?

FWIW (Some more) I assume you mean Palmerston North, in which case I presume the are some 70-80k roads on the fringes of the city before you hit the 100k zones?