Avon - The love affair is over!

[Gremlin]

One part of me completely agrees with you Blackbird, giving them a chance. However, another part of me says, I work hard for my clients (in IT), why do I have to do everything myself? If someone else drops the ball, then it's their problem.

The reason for trying to find the fault is that it happened somehow, and knowing how it happened could rule out/in other tyres because of a similar scenario. It's automatic for me, to troubleshoot and find the cause of the problem, hopefully learning something from it.

[Blackbird]

One part of me completely agrees with you Blackbird, giving them a chance. However, another part of me says, I work hard for my clients (in IT), why do I have to do everything myself? If someone else drops the ball, then it's their problem.

The reason for trying to find the fault is that it happened somehow, and knowing how it happened could rule out/in other tyres because of a similar scenario. It's automatic for me, to troubleshoot and find the cause of the problem, hopefully learning something from it.

I don't disagree with you! It's simply that the tyre outlet may or may not be either qualified or inclined to make a correct call. In a perfect world, you wouldn't have to do everything yourself but we've all come across organisations or people within that organisation who don't give a rat's arse. In the case of my specific issue with Avon tyres, I simply didn't think that Boyd Honda who fitted them for me had the necessary expertise or even the inclination to follow it up as vigorously as I would have done myself. That's why I cut them out and did the troubleshooting with the people who were most likely to give me the answers I needed to learn something from it.

With Koro's chosen tyre outlet, had it been a Michelin that failed in that manner, he would have presumably blamed Michelin but it could have been the slackness of the same outfit that was the real issue in failing to follow up with Michelin.

Oh, and incidentally, I'm not defending Avons as I'm not currently using them. All I'm querying is the investigative process and whether there are gaps.

[KoroJ]

The tyres are run at 42psi on the ST and they do go up 5 or 6psi when at running temp, although I always check the pressures cold and that's it. Quite frankly I just assumed they would get to temp and sit there and no doubt they will go up and down a little depending on the various factors on a ride, but I've never thought or been inclined to monitor the pressure whilst on a ride. I have recently been advised that running nitrogen in the tyres maintains the pressures for long periods, minimises heating within the tyre and improves handling. I may try that at some stage??

I haven't followed up on the incident as yet due to work requirements leading up to the days off for the GC this week, but I will get around to it.

[Hitcher]

One shouldn't have to piss around worrying about tyres. Tyre manufacturers and bike companies recommend cold pressures that one may tweak by a couple of psi here or there so that things run as one likes. That's as complex as it should get. Nitrogen and fannying around with hot pressures is beyond the pale. If a tyre brand can't handle that, then find one that will.

I too once had an ST1300. A few years ago tyre choices for these were limited, thanks to Mr Honda choosing an oddball front tyre size. I had issues with my ST eating dual compound rears. The original Storms worked very well for me. So too did the Metzeler Z6, apart from that no-tread-in-the-middle-of-the-rear nonsense that some manufacturers continue with.

Once is an accident; twice is a coincidence; and three times is a trend. Based on KoroJ's experiences, I blame the tyres. No vagueries are going to repeat themselves in three successive tyre changes. Ye cannae change the laws of physics. Or of probability, for that matter.

On another score, Mrs H has just replaced a set of Storm Ultras on her 650 Bandit, suspension mods by Crown Kiwi. 16,000km off them and I reckon that there would have been about another 3,000km of life left in the rear. Her setup is at least 120km less than KoroJ's and maybe not ridden quite as hard. I'm picking that she'll get a similar distance out of her new Ultras -- perhaps when her K6 winds over 110,000km early next year.

[Kickaha]

Once is an accident; twice is a coincidence; and three times is a trend. Based on KoroJ's experiences, I blame the tyres. No vagueries are going to repeat themselves in three successive tyre changes. Ye cannae change the laws of physics. Or of probability, for that matter..

One and Two were punctures which can happen to any tyre anywhere

Three was a tyre failure and the only one I'd be really concerned with

[p.dath]

The tyres are run at 42psi on the ST and they do go up 5 or 6psi when at running temp

I think your initial gut reaction that there is something wrong with the tyres is right. But if your experiencing a 5 or 6 psi increase from cold to hot on normal road riding I'd be inclined to try increasing your cold pressure by another 2 psi to reduce the heating effect. 5 to 6 psi of increase is on the high side for road riding.

I have recently been advised that running nitrogen in the tyres maintains the pressures for long periods, minimises heating within the tyre and improves handling. I may try that at some stage??

I wouldn't waste your money on nitrogen fills for street tyre use.

Nitrogen is typically used where there is a risk of fire and you want to minimise the risk of oxygen from tyres fuelling it (such a fire trucks, airplanes, etc), or where the tyre has to carry a *very* heavy load to minimise heating, such as in aircraft, very heavy trucks, etc.

You sometimes hear salesman promoting nitrogen because the molecules are bigger so tyres wont go as flat as easy. Let me call "bullshit" on this one. Ordinary "air" that you put into your tyre is comprised mostly of nitrogen. A nitrogen fill is not "pure" nitrogen, simple a stronger concentration of it. The small extra percentage of nitrogen in such a fill for a normal street tyre will make no difference to its ability to retain "pressure" or reduce "leakage".


Also let me call "bull shit" on the sales man claim that you hear that nitrogen improves handling. Correct tyre pressure improves handling - not the concentration of nitrogen being put into the tyre.

Also let me call "bull shit" on the sale man claim that nitrogen makes your tyres wear slower or last longer. Correct tyre pressure, again, is what will give yours tyres the longest life then can achieve. Changing the nitrogen percentage will not have any significant effect on street tyres.

I think the only major tyre people left "promoting" nitrogen use for street tyre use in New Zealand is Firestone. Everyone else stopped about 5s after the trend started when they all realised it was smoke and mirrors.

[Kickaha]

I wouldn't waste your money on nitrogen fills for street tyre use.

Have you ever used it yourself or like most naysayers are you speaking from a position of ignorance?

You sometimes hear salesman promoting nitrogen because the molecules are bigger so tyres wont go as flat as easy. Let me call "bullshit" on this one. Ordinary "air" that you put into your tyre is comprised mostly of nitrogen. A nitrogen fill is not "pure" nitrogen, simple a stronger concentration of it. The small extra percentage of nitrogen in such a fill for a normal street tyre will make no difference to its ability to retain "pressure" or reduce "leakage".

Nitrogen wont make any difference if the tyre is punctured in normal usage it will loose pressure just as fast, but contrary to what p.dath is saying, without being punctured it will "leak down" a lot slower and so you will retain correct pressures a lot longer

Also let me call "bull shit" on the sales man claim that you hear that nitrogen improves handling. Correct tyre pressure improves handling - not the concentration of nitrogen being put into the tyre.

I haven't once ever heard a salesman claim that and I've spent a fair bit of time with people who sell it
as he says correct pressure improves handling but nitrogen will retain correct pressure longer

Also let me call "bull shit" on the sale man claim that nitrogen makes your tyres wear slower or last longer. Correct tyre pressure, again, is what will give yours tyres the longest life then can achieve. Changing the nitrogen percentage will not have any significant effect on street tyres.

Again what he says is true about correct pressure but totally wrong about the nitrogen percentage not having any significant effect because once again it retain that "correct pressure" longer

I think the only major tyre people left "promoting" nitrogen use for street tyre use in New Zealand is Firestone. Everyone else stopped about 5s after the trend started when they all realised it was smoke and mirrors.

When it was originally introduced I was very cynical about it's usage, since then over the last few years I can see a benefit unless of course you're the type of person who checks their tyre pressures on a regular basis and going by what I see there are very few about

I use it in my Motorcycle primarily because it will sometimes not be used for months at a time, prior to filling with nitrogen it would always need topping up 3-4 or more pound after 4-6 months without being used, with Nitrogen it doesn't need anything and for most people who are to lazy to check pressures that is the real benefit

[p.dath]

Have you ever used it yourself or like most naysayers are you speaking from a position of ignorance?

I've researched the issued, and consulted with professionals in the industry on it. I've also looked at where it is actually used (such as airplane tyres, heavy weight trucks, firetrucks), and can see clear reasons why it would be used - none of which apply to light commercial road tyre use.

Nitrogen wont make any difference if the tyre is punctured in normal usage it will loose pressure just as fast, but contrary to what p.dath is saying, without being punctured it will "leak down" a lot slower and so you will retain correct pressures a lot longer

And your going to tell me this because the higher concentration of nitrogen in the fill results in a larger molecule, correct? I looked into this claim quite a while ago, and found it to be mis-leading. I don't have the figures to hand, but the molecular size of the "stronger" nitrogen mix is negligible compared to the size of the holes in the tyre membrane that you are trying to prevent leakage through. Remember, that the *vast* majority of the molecules in the standard "air" full are *already* the same size as those in the "nitrogen" fill.

I haven't once ever heard a salesman claim that and I've spent a fair bit of time with people who sell it

Specifically, Firestone used to produce a red brochure that they gave out to people citing that it improved performance. I hope they have retracted this from the brochure now.

[Kickaha]

I've researched the issued, and consulted with professionals in the industry on it. I've also looked at where it is actually used (such as airplane tyres, heavy weight trucks, firetrucks), and can see clear reasons why it would be used - none of which apply to light commercial road tyre use.

The main reason and advantage for people using it in their personal vehicles is simply because it doesn't leak down at the same rate so the tyres stay at correct inflation pressure for much longer

And your going to tell me this because the higher concentration of nitrogen in the fill results in a larger molecule, correct? I looked into this claim quite a while ago, and found it to be mis-leading. I don't have the figures to hand, but the molecular size of the "stronger" nitrogen mix is negligible compared to the size of the holes in the tyre membrane that you are trying to prevent leakage through. Remember, that the *vast* majority of the molecules in the standard "air" full are *already* the same size as those in the "nitrogen" fill.

Actually I wasn't going to say any such thing, I'm well aware of that claim not being correct

Specifically, Firestone used to produce a red brochure that they gave out to people citing that it improved performance. I hope they have retracted this from the brochure now.

Indirectly it would though because of the tyres maintaining correct pressure for longer

Here's a real world test, post one proves how good it is
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...light=nitrogen

[avgas]

I fucken hate Avon's and Conti's

Fuck knows why. I just hate em.

[Kickaha]

Why do these tyres work OK on ST1100's but apparently not on ST1300's? As I stated previously, weight, power & torque aren't largely different between the two bikes so why is it 'well known' (to quote Riffer) that ST1300's are hard on their tyres? I find this a very intriguing side issue.... is it true and if so why? Or is it just internet myth?

I was doing some reading on another forum and it looked like the ST1100 and ST1300 run different size rear tyres (160 vs 170), some also commented on a "reinforced" version for the ST1100 rear? and that Avon don't have a recommendation for the ST1300

Looking at Avons tyre chart they have a 160/70R17 with a load rating of 437kg while the highest load rating on a 170/60R17 is 355kg

So unless they are using the same size/load rating/speed rated tyre the comparisons between the ST1100 and ST1300 are meaningless

[cs363]

I was doing some reading on another forum and it looked like the ST1100 and ST1300 run different size rear tyres (160 vs 170), some also commented on a "reinforced" version for the ST1100 rear? and that Avon don't have a recommendation for the ST1300

Looking at Avons tyre chart they have a 160/70R17 with a load rating of 437kg while the highest load rating on a 170/60R17 is 355kg

So unless they are using the same size/load rating/speed rated tyre the comparisons between the ST1100 and ST1300 are meaningless

Thanks for that, I was curious as I don't know much about these bikes and couldn't see much difference between them on the face of it.

Interesting that Avon manufacture a Storm Ultra in 170/16ZR17 & 120/70ZR18 but their tyre chooser comes up with:

ST 1300 / A (2002 onwards)
Front tyres
Pressure front: -
Front size: 120/70ZR18 No Avon Tyre Fitment
Rear tyre
Pressure rear: -
Rear size: 170/60ZR17 No Avon Tyre Fitment

(Posted to clarify Kickaha's comment re: lack of a recommendation from Avon)

Perhaps 'Mr Avon' knows something the OP's dealer didn't bother to find out?

Also from Avon's website:

"Just because a tyre will fit on your bike doesn’t mean it’s the right tyre. Check your bike’s handbook to see what the right specification should be, or if you’ve lost the handbook ask your local Avon dealer for help. The speed and load ratings for your tyres should be the same as the original fitment items – never fit a tyre of a lesser specification. And although it is possible in certain circumstances to fit a tyre of a non-standard dimension, always seek the advice of either your bike’s manufacturer or your Avon tyre dealer before doing so."

Looks to me like the problem lies more with the people that sold and fitted the tyres to the OP's bike based on the info provided by Avon themselves.

[caspernz]

Mmmm, been reading this thread mostly out of curiosity, have an interest in the ST1300 as my next bike, and as an avid rider tyres are always an interesting topic.

First up the nitrogen issue. I'm a sceptic as well, with about 80% of air being made up of the stuff. Funnily enough the wife takes the car in for a service, current model XR6 Falcon, and comes back with the tyres now filled with nitrogen. Yeah right me thinks, but it just "feels" different. Maybe I'm imagining it? Well, a few months go by and funnily enough the tyres hold their pressure better/longer. Me being the anal prick that I am, I check tyre pressures on the bike almost daily and on the car once a week. Well on the car we go from having to add 1 to 2 psi a month to maybe half a psi a month. Electronic digital pressure gauge, use the same one on car and bike. So at least that part is true, nitrogen seems to "leak out" slower than the free air we use. Oh, and when I add air to the car tyres, it's just air, not the nitrogen that I have to go see a tyre shop for, if this is the only tangible benefit I can detect, I'll stick to adding air more often....

Anyhow, if I'd had a tyre failure as nasty as what I've seen in the photos put up on this thread, I'd be pissed off too. I'll take the OP as an experienced biker, hey the Rusty Nuts brigade deserve that respect, and as he knows his bike he'd have known if anything other than the tyre was at fault? Add to that other owners of the ST1300 having similar failures....mmmm....trend? Add to that yet another group of riders who are happy with the Avons that the OP has had a problem with.

This rather reminds of something from my day job. I drive fuel tankers for a living and have done so for longer than I care to admit. Oil companies chase tare weight with a passion, which takes us to a tyre issue that came to light as a result of a foray into reducing tare weight. Semi trailers which had been running 265/70 19.5 tyres could save tare weight by going with a 245/70 19.5 both by the tyre being lighter and the rim being narrower and thus lighter. The only problem being that the load being imposed on the 245 tyre was very close to its rated maximum, whereas the 265 had plenty in reserve in comparison. The tyre wear and failure trend on the 245 that followed made this a fairly short lived experiment....

So taking into account the OP rides hard and long in NZ conditions, on a tyre that is quite likely at the edge of its comfort zone with a weekend warrior on his ST1300 on a leisurely cruise....failure when pushed isn't a surprise. Seems Avon changed the construction from Storm to Storm Ultra?

Oh, that Mangaweka railway crossing is legendary for wrecking all manner of equipment by the way.

Rusty cords can be indicative of many things, but in practical terms they are most likely caused by an object partly penetrating the tyre. The number of nails, screws, bits of steel, embedded stones, shards of glass etc I pick out of my trucks' tyres is staggering, which kinda makes me look long and hard at my bikes' tyres whenever I'm doing serious distances in a short time.

I'm no detective, but I'd guess that the spectacular failure of the third Avon had a chronology along the lines of: nice black Avon at the edge of its limits, partly punctured by road debris, get it nice and hot in its weakened state and its just a matter of time before it gives up.

The odd ball tyre sizes on the ST1300 don't help, it's as if the 170/60 rear is on the small side? I tend to ride long and hard, you gotta make the most of the opportunity after all....having the ST1300 and Concourse 14 on the shortlist for the next bike....would love to hear of someone who rides long and hard on either and their (successful?) tyre choices?? Oh and the outcome of the OP and the debate with the tyre outfit of course!

[Ocean1]

The main reason and advantage for people using it in their personal vehicles is simply because it doesn't leak down at the same rate so the tyres stay at correct inflation pressure for much longer

I once had occasion to run a tyre for an extended period after having been slimed (TM).

Months later, feeling guilty that I hadn't checked the pressure for a while I found it was fine, (same guage too), only then did I remember that someone had slimed it. Couldn't bring myself to leave it there though.

[ducatisl]

Mmmm, been reading this thread mostly out of curiosity, have an interest in the ST1300 as my next bike, and as an avid rider tyres are always an interesting topic.

First up the nitrogen issue. I'm a sceptic as well, with about 80% of air being made up of the stuff. Funnily enough the wife takes the car in for a service, current model XR6 Falcon, and comes back with the tyres now filled with nitrogen. Yeah right me thinks, but it just "feels" different. Maybe I'm imagining it? Well, a few months go by and funnily enough the tyres hold their pressure better/longer. Me being the anal prick that I am, I check tyre pressures on the bike almost daily and on the car once a week. Well on the car we go from having to add 1 to 2 psi a month to maybe half a psi a month. Electronic digital pressure gauge, use the same one on car and bike. So at least that part is true, nitrogen seems to "leak out" slower than the free air we use. Oh, and when I add air to the car tyres, it's just air, not the nitrogen that I have to go see a tyre shop for, if this is the only tangible benefit I can detect, I'll stick to adding air more often....

Anyhow, if I'd had a tyre failure as nasty as what I've seen in the photos put up on this thread, I'd be pissed off too. I'll take the OP as an experienced biker, hey the Rusty Nuts brigade deserve that respect, and as he knows his bike he'd have known if anything other than the tyre was at fault? Add to that other owners of the ST1300 having similar failures....mmmm....trend? Add to that yet another group of riders who are happy with the Avons that the OP has had a problem with.

This rather reminds of something from my day job. I drive fuel tankers for a living and have done so for longer than I care to admit. Oil companies chase tare weight with a passion, which takes us to a tyre issue that came to light as a result of a foray into reducing tare weight. Semi trailers which had been running 265/70 19.5 tyres could save tare weight by going with a 245/70 19.5 both by the tyre being lighter and the rim being narrower and thus lighter. The only problem being that the load being imposed on the 245 tyre was very close to its rated maximum, whereas the 265 had plenty in reserve in comparison. The tyre wear and failure trend on the 245 that followed made this a fairly short lived experiment....

So taking into account the OP rides hard and long in NZ conditions, on a tyre that is quite likely at the edge of its comfort zone with a weekend warrior on his ST1300 on a leisurely cruise....failure when pushed isn't a surprise. Seems Avon changed the construction from Storm to Storm Ultra?

Oh, that Mangaweka railway crossing is legendary for wrecking all manner of equipment by the way.

Rusty cords can be indicative of many things, but in practical terms they are most likely caused by an object partly penetrating the tyre. The number of nails, screws, bits of steel, embedded stones, shards of glass etc I pick out of my trucks' tyres is staggering, which kinda makes me look long and hard at my bikes' tyres whenever I'm doing serious distances in a short time.

I'm no detective, but I'd guess that the spectacular failure of the third Avon had a chronology along the lines of: nice black Avon at the edge of its limits, partly punctured by road debris, get it nice and hot in its weakened state and its just a matter of time before it gives up.

The odd ball tyre sizes on the ST1300 don't help, it's as if the 170/60 rear is on the small side? I tend to ride long and hard, you gotta make the most of the opportunity after all....having the ST1300 and Concourse 14 on the shortlist for the next bike....would love to hear of someone who rides long and hard on either and their (successful?) tyre choices?? Oh and the outcome of the OP and the debate with the tyre outfit of course!

just to put an end to this thread.... this person that had the problems never contacted the NZ importer for Avon tyres to voice his concerns, he just got on here and started mouthing off about the product.
Also please note, Avon do not recommend fitting this tyre to this bike. Who ever recommended this fitment was wrong, and he should be taking up this complaints with them.
there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Storm ultra 2, infact they are even better than the previous storm as far as milage and performance goes.