What class will this fit into?

**gav** · 5th December 2011, 05:46

Oh dear, it's back on Trade Me, and they still insist in using bucket racing in the advert.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=415534303

**jasonu** · 5th December 2011, 05:53

Originally Posted by gav

Oh dear, it's back on Trade Me, and they still insist in using bucket racing in the advert.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=415534303

Pepper his listing with some 'appropriate' questions...

**koba** · 5th December 2011, 06:19

Originally Posted by jasonu

Pepper his listing with some 'appropriate' questions...

Fuckit, I just told him.

It really pisses me off when people knowingly and willfully miss-represent items for sale.

Sure, if he had said something like "While not currently permitted in the rules for F4/Bucket racing, this bike is generally allowed to race at the discretion of the organisers".

If the guy was serious he could even look at trying to sort a sub-class and legitimate rules for them. It would probably require too much brain activity though.

**gav** · 5th December 2011, 18:44

Originally Posted by koba

Fuckit, I just told him.

It really pisses me off when people knowingly and willfully miss-represent items for sale.

Sure, if he had said something like "While not currently permitted in the rules for F4/Bucket racing, this bike is generally allowed to race at the discretion of the organisers".

If the guy was serious he could even look at trying to sort a sub-class and legitimate rules for them. It would probably require too much brain activity though.

I've had an email from the guy, I kinda feel sorry for him, as he has asked ""an organiser" and even though its an over size engine he has been told that its probably OK to race with F4

. It makes it bloody hard for F4 to be taken seriously when this sort of advice is bandied about.
I also suggested that he should try and arrange a seperate class for mini motards to be raced, on the same tracks and at the same meets but have the motards run in there own seperate class. Maybe his "helpful" organiser could try and get on the case with this too.
Run them as a seperate class but make it quite clear its not a bucket/F4 bike.
Meanwhile who ever this organiser is, he needs to be taken out back and smacked in the head with a 4x2

**TZ350** · 5th December 2011, 19:16

Sent him an email and pointed out to Trademe that the add is delberatly misleading as by now he knows its not Bucket legal.

**mossy1200** · 5th December 2011, 19:22

FXR155Z Motard is designed for the Kart Racing, like Bucket Racing around NZ

Seems to read that the bike was designed for a race class similar to nz bucket racing but he doesnt claim it has a race class here.

Would it be easier for someone whoes been emailing him to suggest that he includes although it has no class here yet it may be alowed to run pointless with F4 with your local clubs permission and that it has the equipment (bungs etc) to enable it to be on cart tracks with club events.

I would say anyone buys one and has fun will build a bike that can earn points or modify this comp pit bike to make it legal(maybe repower it or sleave it down etc).

**koba** · 5th December 2011, 20:04

Originally Posted by mossy1200

FXR155Z Motard is designed for the Kart Racing, like Bucket Racing around NZ

Seems to read that the bike was designed for a race class similar to nz bucket racing but he doesnt claim it has a race class here.

Would it be easier for someone whoes been emailing him to suggest that he includes although it has no class here yet it may be alowed to run pointless with F4 with your local clubs permission and that it has the equipment (bungs etc) to enable it to be on cart tracks with club events.

I would say anyone buys one and has fun will build a bike that can earn points or modify this comp pit bike to make it legal(maybe repower it or sleave it down etc).

In the subtitle it says "Bucket racer design, F4 150 class 15"

That and "FXR155Z Motard is designed for the Kart Racing, like Bucket Racing around NZ" are at the very least very ambiguous but I'd consider them misleading.
I would say the average buyer is likely to take it in good faith that they can race it and not look into it further.

Shit, I started on a much cheaper and pusier pitbike myself.

BUT, I knew it was at least shaky in the rules. (arguably more legitimate as a std CT110 clone but that's not the argument here)

I used it to start out and get on the track. I then got a bike that was kosher.

**koba** · 5th December 2011, 20:04

Originally Posted by gav

I've had an email from the guy, I kinda feel sorry for him, as he has asked ""an organiser" and even though its an over size engine he has been told that its probably OK to race with F4

. It makes it bloody hard for F4 to be taken seriously when this sort of advice is bandied about.
I also suggested that he should try and arrange a seperate class for mini motards to be raced, on the same tracks and at the same meets but have the motards run in there own seperate class. Maybe his "helpful" organiser could try and get on the case with this too.
Run them as a seperate class but make it quite clear its not a bucket/F4 bike.
Meanwhile who ever this organiser is, he needs to be taken out back and smacked in the head with a 4x2

Lot's of things get lost in translation.
I would imagine it it quite likely "the organiser" may not have been aware the answer to a question that may have resembled "do you mind if I race my bike here?" was going to be used as reasoning to pass off a non-legal bike as a Bucket racer.

I'm not saying that's what has happened, It's speculation on my part but mentioned as a possible reason for "the organiser" being cited as giving it a green light.

Much like how some fools would take a 4x2 headhit comment as an actual threat of violence. That will usually only happens if distorting the situation suits some particular dickheads ends though.

Again, realising any outsiders reading this will probably miss-read me as an elitist snob, I will again say; I'm all for participation and I really don't mind something like this racing against me. (I'm not an organiser, just a racer who should be in the shed rather than behind a keyboard)

The problem in this situation is that someone buying it may be misled into believing they are purchasing a bike that is able to be run legitimately in F4.

There are a couple of similar bikes that run here with no complaints.

**koba** · 5th December 2011, 20:11

My Message to the seller:

I suggest you point out the bike isn't actually legal as a bucket/F4 bike. On the basis of it being a competition based design. These kind of bikes being used at an event are at the discretion and good-will of an organiser. It's not fair to sell it without saying so. Rules can be found here: http://www.mnz.co.nz/download/2010_M..._Miniature.pdf also see chapter 10: http://www.mnz.co.nz/download/2011_M..._Technical.pdf

I forgot tom mention the size limit. There is argument on the basis of the overbore limit but I think that would be a very weak argument as it Starts at over 150cc.

His reply:

HI there,

Thanks for your suggestion, I will do further research with local organizers as well.

Regards,

Hopefully he isn't the type who will keep asking until he gets the answer he wants then pulls the "but he said..."

**mossy1200** · 5th December 2011, 20:17

Originally Posted by koba

In the subtitle it says "Bucket racer design, F4 150 class 15"

That and "FXR155Z Motard is designed for the Kart Racing, like Bucket Racing around NZ" are at the very least very ambiguous but I'd consider them misleading.
I would say the average buyer is likely to take it in good faith that they can race it and not look into it further.

Shit, I started on a much cheaper and pusier pitbike myself.

BUT, I knew it was at least shaky in the rules. (arguably more legitimate as a std CT110 clone but that's not the argument here)

I used it to start out and get on the track. I then got a bike that was kosher.

yeah i never read the subtitle just the add itself.my bad

its a lot like people using the word leather and adding faux later in the add i guess.

do people pay 2 g for f4 bikes? Most that put that in would already have been in touch with their local clubs for advice on what to race i would think before spending those bucks.The trader will end up with "not fit for the purpose intended"small claim if someone buys one and turns up to race F4 and gets turned away.You would think the trader would remove F4 from the add for that reason alone.

**Henk** · 5th December 2011, 20:27

Yes people pay around two grand for an F4 bike, for a race ready FXR that's about the average spend if you put it together yourself. My main objection to the add is that someone may buy one to find they have been burnt.
There are enough grey areas as it stands without these becoming an issue.
Don't think any amount of wittering on here will make a difference though, or emailing him. He must have coin tied up in whatever stock he has bought in and if he can't sell them as buckets he'll be pretty much stuck with them, unless someone brighter than me can see some other use for them. I guess you could hack around your back yard until the neighbors complain.

**koba** · 5th December 2011, 20:28

Originally Posted by mossy1200

yeah i never read the subtitle just the add itself.my bad

its a lot like people using the word leather and adding faux later in the add i guess.

do people pay 2 g for f4 bikes? Most that put that in would already have been in touch with their local clubs for advice on what to race i would think before spending those bucks.The trader will end up with "not fit for the purpose intended"small claim if someone buys one and turns up to race F4 and gets turned away.You would think the trader would remove F4 from the add for that reason alone.

I doubt anyone would actually get turned away.
As much as I sound like an anorak clad curmudgeon in this thread we (Bucket racers collectively if I may speak for the majority, if not all) are all about having a good time on the track.

Still, it would be a super-duper piss-off to drop a couple of K on one and find out it isn't legal.

People pay more than 2g for some F4 bikes, although you could have a very competitive one for that price it depends on how wisely/luckily one spends that money.

It is quite conceivable that someone would buy one and just turn up, Iv'e seen some quite good bikes turn up in the hands of a new owner who hasn't seen the track closer than youtube a few times. Thankfully they all seem to have liked it...

**mossy1200** · 5th December 2011, 20:33

Originally Posted by koba

I doubt anyone would actually get turned away.
As much as I sound like an anorak clad curmudgeon in this thread we (Bucket racers collectively if I may speak for the majority, if not all) are all about having a good time on the track.

Still, it would be a super-duper piss-off to drop a couple of K on one and find out it isn't legal.

People pay more than 2g for some F4 bikes, although you could have a very competitive one for that price it depends on how wisely/luckily one spends that money.

It is quite conceivable that someone would buy one and just turn up, Iv'e seen some quite good bikes turn up in the hands of a new owner who hasn't seen the track closer than youtube a few times. Thankfully they all seem to have liked it...

I guess buyer is protected buy fair trading act ..Not fit for purpose intended..if clubs dont accept a bike advertised but the clubs would need to perhaps all carry the same opinion on if the bike is legit.

**Henk** · 5th December 2011, 20:37

Pretty obvious that it isn't legal of you bother reading the rule book. But then most people don't. Legal protection fair trading / consumer guarantees act etc is even less understood by the majority, my guess is that you'd end up in small claims before you had any chance of a refund,and how many people bother with that.