The Election - who among us will vote National?

[dmc]

There'd be no problem with wearing black if the people wearing it trained their eyes to compensate for the lack of seeing in others.

I believe we're within spitting distance of being forced to wear hi-vis. If we are then we only have ourselves to blame.

For years we've taken the easy path of blaming the other person for not seeing us instead of admonishing ourselves for not reading the situation adequately.

If they can't see a headlight/tail light then a hi-viz aint going to do shit, I could be fluro orange with flashing lights and it wouldn't help one little bit when people just don't bother to look. As you said you have to assume they don't see us and ride accordingly.

[rainman]

No, a supporter of consistency and fairness. Also a proponent of self responsibility instead of looking to the Government for everything.

But are we all not collectively hypocrites?

-we all want to avoid taxes as much as possible

-we all want our goods as cheap as possible but turn a blind eye to the fact many goods are produced with sweatshop labour. And that in turn puts many of our own folk out of work, or has turned them into ''serfs'' working for big box retailers peddling all this stuff.

-with respect to ACC levies on motorcyclists many of us are not doing our bit by wearing effective safety gear and being highly visible. Ive always been a little at odds why black is a predominant colour of choice when it is one of the least visible colours???? Also the scooter fraternity needs a real shake about the casual nature of clothing they wear. If you fall off and are wearing jandals and short sleeves why should you still qualify for ACC?

-we all want high wages and full employment despite the very real inequities of overseas competition and the distortional effects of exchange rate

-we all expect the Government to pick up the pieces despite grizzling about the taxes we pay

And yet so many of us are against offshore ironsand mining and deep sea drilling, commercial operations that if handled properly by any Government would potentially bring a lot of wealth to this country, as have minerals in Australia.
...
So how does all of that work?

Collectively we are also paying dearly for the after effects of a worldwide banking system that was totally out of control, too much easy credit and massively inflated house prices due to huge and un-needed property speculation. Now making housing totally unaffordable / unattainable for most young people trying to get onto the property ladder, that is really sad. Add to that cradle to the grave welfare that ultimately is unsustainable. Look at the Greeks, they have been totally out of control and in a bubble. Now that its proven that their extremely liberal systems are unsustainable they are grizzling big time, morons.

Ultimately no-one wants any pain or a dose of reality. ... Whilst not perfect the National party is the lesser of the main evils ''on offer''

Y'know Mr Taylor I've always held the view that you were a bit of an arse, however I agree with a surprising bit of what you have said above. I draw a different conclusion, also based on a few facts you've left out, and I'd write the history of the last 30 years in a quite different tone - and I certainly disagree with your diagnosis of National as "least worst" - but respect to you for a reasonably clearly articulated set of views.

Agrees:
- Greater self-reliance is generally good, although it won't work for all (e.g. disabled) and we need to be realistic about transition. There is a multi-generational problem to fix and it ain't easy.
- The trap of cheap goods, consequent job losses, and retail serfdom (although we may agree on solutions here, I'd be keen to hear yours). Yes we turn a blind eye to sweatshop labour, and also to the environmental cost of our cheap shiny goods.
- ACC levies and taking greater control of your own safety (but again, short of mandating hi-vis, safety gear etc and being branded as "nanny state" I fail to see an easy solution that works)
- Scooters. Yes, but again how to fix it? You have to treat people based on medical need, otherwise you have an ethical problem. Pay a lower but survivable compo rate to those that were demostrably negligent, rather than unlucky or the victim of others' negligence? Maybe.
- Overseas competition. Although, I suspect we agree only about the problem here.
- Liberal systems are unsustainable. Funny view for you to hold, though?

Disagrees:
- it is Government's job is to pick up the pieces for lots of things: Christchurch, Rena, etc.
- Off-shore oil drilling, until we a) get our shit together and b) actually deliver the supposedly wonderful carbon-capture technologies everyone has been talking abut forever.
- The Nats are good for anything. The best they can be is harmless; but with no plan to fix our real situation other than the brain-dead asset sales idea, they need to be (but won't be) booted out office smart quick. A less radical Labour (not that they ever have been that radical), maybe in coalition with some moderating forces, is honestly the best option for NZ at the moment. We will, I suspect, live to regret our likely choice on the 26th. Our kids certainly will, although maybe they'll be having a great time in Aussie.

Maybes:
- Fairness, a very loaded term
- Consistency, overrated and famously the hobgoblin of small minds
- Mining, OKish but not in national parks, and if the externalities are paid by them that gets the profits..

Stuff not mentioned:
- The mind-blowing stupidity that is a partial sale of our energy assets at this time
- Undoing 30 years of liberalism which has led to the global situation you bemoan above
- Overseas ownership of much of what we need to be more self-reliant
- Lack of an alternative economic driver than primary produce
- Energy depletion, coming, ready or not

That's the entire point of MMP, and if electorate MP's actually, you know, worked for their electorate, it would work much better.

I support MMP (but would like some tweaks to it) but there are circumstances where your logic makes no sense either. I'm in McCully's electorate. Short of putting a whole bunch of ads in the local school newsletters he does absolutely fuck-all for this electorate - though he's utterly and completely useless so it's probably a blessing he doesn't try to be more helpful. He's the worst kind of career politician... yet he is almost guaranteed to win, thanks to the muppetry of the general population here who tend to struggle with anything more complex than "two ticks" voting. As a result, no-one bothers to stand a solid candidate against him, he wins every time, and no-one' best interests are served, except Muppet McCully's.

[Robert Taylor]

Y'know Mr Taylor I've always held the view that you were a bit of an arse, however I agree with a surprising bit of what you have said above. I draw a different conclusion, also based on a few facts you've left out, and I'd write the history of the last 30 years in a quite different tone - and I certainly disagree with your diagnosis of National as "least worst" - but respect to you for a reasonably clearly articulated set of views.

Agrees:
- Greater self-reliance is generally good, although it won't work for all (e.g. disabled) and we need to be realistic about transition. There is a multi-generational problem to fix and it ain't easy.
- The trap of cheap goods, consequent job losses, and retail serfdom (although we may agree on solutions here, I'd be keen to hear yours). Yes we turn a blind eye to sweatshop labour, and also to the environmental cost of our cheap shiny goods.
- ACC levies and taking greater control of your own safety (but again, short of mandating hi-vis, safety gear etc and being branded as "nanny state" I fail to see an easy solution that works)
- Scooters. Yes, but again how to fix it? You have to treat people based on medical need, otherwise you have an ethical problem. Pay a lower but survivable compo rate to those that were demostrably negligent, rather than unlucky or the victim of others' negligence? Maybe.
- Overseas competition. Although, I suspect we agree only about the problem here.
- Liberal systems are unsustainable. Funny view for you to hold, though?

Disagrees:
- it is Government's job is to pick up the pieces for lots of things: Christchurch, Rena, etc.
- Off-shore oil drilling, until we a) get our shit together and b) actually deliver the supposedly wonderful carbon-capture technologies everyone has been talking abut forever.
- The Nats are good for anything. The best they can be is harmless; but with no plan to fix our real situation other than the brain-dead asset sales idea, they need to be (but won't be) booted out office smart quick. A less radical Labour (not that they ever have been that radical), maybe in coalition with some moderating forces, is honestly the best option for NZ at the moment. We will, I suspect, live to regret our likely choice on the 26th. Our kids certainly will, although maybe they'll be having a great time in Aussie.

Maybes:
- Fairness, a very loaded term
- Consistency, overrated and famously the hobgoblin of small minds
- Mining, OKish but not in national parks, and if the externalities are paid by them that gets the profits..

Stuff not mentioned:
- The mind-blowing stupidity that is a partial sale of our energy assets at this time
- Undoing 30 years of liberalism which has led to the global situation you bemoan above
- Overseas ownership of much of what we need to be more self-reliant
- Lack of an alternative economic driver than primary produce
- Energy depletion, coming, ready or not



I support MMP (but would like some tweaks to it) but there are circumstances where your logic makes no sense either. I'm in McCully's electorate. Short of putting a whole bunch of ads in the local school newsletters he does absolutely fuck-all for this electorate - though he's utterly and completely useless so it's probably a blessing he doesn't try to be more helpful. He's the worst kind of career politician... yet he is almost guaranteed to win, thanks to the muppetry of the general population here who tend to struggle with anything more complex than "two ticks" voting. As a result, no-one bothers to stand a solid candidate against him, he wins every time, and no-one' best interests are served, except Muppet McCully's.

Yes a lot of common ground there but different ways of trying to effect solutions. Indeed it aint easy. Im busy working my arse off at present so have little time to articulate a lengthy response. But I think most Kiwis irrespective of preferred ''flavour'' of Government have a sense of fair play and that there should still be a safety net for those who cannot help themselves. If you have a analyse some of my thoughts they are in line with Greens policy but I just couldnt vote for them for many other reasons!

In response to previous posts about ACC and high vis clothing yes agreed its a two way street, make yourself visible but also beware that the other parties may still not have seen you.

[Robert Taylor]

[QUOTE=rainman;QUOTE]



Yes a lot of common ground there but different ways of trying to effect solutions. Indeed it aint easy. Im busy working my arse off at present so have little time to articulate a lengthy response. But I think most Kiwis irrespective of preferred ''flavour'' of Government have a sense of fair play and that there should still be a safety net for those who cannot help themselves. If you analyse some of my thoughts they are in line with Greens policy but I just couldnt vote for them for many other reasons!

In response to previous posts about ACC and high vis clothing yes agreed its a two way street, make yourself visible but also beware that the other parties may still not have seen you. 

[Fatt Max]

I reckon we should bring back Buck....

[Swoop]

Ive always been a little at odds why black is a predominant colour of choice when it is one of the least visible colours????

I have to disagree. Riding a black bike while in black gear and never had an accident, I am looking for a refund on the money I have spent on my ACC.

There is an easier way...

Other small countries in Europe do it... govern by referendum...

But, but.....
That would allow us to slash the quantity of MP's and save a shitload of money. It has been suggested on KB before, but Ferdinand from down at the university student's lounge with the cool pushbike (with the leaky tyre) and dopey unwashed hippy girlfriend says that it's a silly idea... so he should know.

[Robert Taylor]

I have to disagree. Riding a black bike while in black gear and never had an accident, I am looking for a refund on the money I have spent on my ACC.



But, but.....
That would allow us to slash the quantity of MP's and save a shitload of money. It has been suggested on KB before, but Ferdinand from down at the university student's lounge with the cool pushbike (with the leaky tyre) and dopey unwashed hippy girlfriend says that it's a silly idea... so he should know.

Maybe then you are more attentive than most to car drivers that dont see you than many other motorcyclists? But one part of this whole equation is to assume that other road users dont see you, exacerbated by dark colours!

If we talk about ACC refunds Id like a refund for all of the out of work injuries mine and many small business's have subsidised. There is merit in user pays for especially the more dangerous sporting activities

[wingnutt]

hard one really, if there is any justice, I would like to see smith loose his job this election,for his acc debacle, I think
there is a golden oportunity, as riders to tell show our disgust at acc levies by voting anything but national.

but the problem is labour any better, somehow I cant see it, putting acc levies on petrol, is just duck shoving the problem. has Mickey mouse registered as a candidate yet?

[Ocean1]

But one part of this whole equation is to assume that other road users dont see you, exacerbated by dark colours!

Obvious, but maybe wrong.

I've seen research indicating that black is the most visible colour in some conditions. A wide enough range of conditions in fact to make it as much a believable safety choice as dayglo orange.

[dmc]

Maybe we should ban silver car's or make them wear fluro vests too as they can be harder to see than a bike with its lights on and a rider in black

[Robert Taylor]

Maybe we should ban silver car's or make them wear fluro vests too as they can be harder to see than a bike with its lights on and a rider in black

But then the comparitively small size of motorcycles doesnt exactly make them as easy to spot as a car many times wider and longer etc. Thats a stark reality, also the need to treat every other road user as an idiot and to make them aware of your presence. Its easy to blame everything else and much of the blame is justified, but motorcyclists must also themselves do more to cut back the drain on ACC. And all those affected by ACC levies, not just motorcyclists.

[Bad Biker]

I'm pretty sure Labour will NEVER privatise ACC - can't recall them backtracking on the ACC promise, but I have been out of the country.

Need to remember the reason that ACC levies are so high.

Over a 9 year period Labour spent the money and brought new considerations into legislation which has increase coverable injuries.

Things like gravity as an external force i.e. just bending is now an accident and causes an injury.

Labour fiddled the funding accounts by taking money from the residual account, motor vehicle account and non-earners account to prop up the earners account to make the employers levies look good.

This is the reason why ACC was in such debt when National came into power.

You may recall that National has not said they will privatise ACC that is a term that is used by Labour.

National has said they will open ACC up to competition in some of the accounts not in all accounts.

Labour has made a lot of promises which sound good but can’t state where the money will come from which will mean more borrowing and more debt for NZ.

Most of Labours election promises apply only if they are in power for more than 1 term not many apply to their first term if they win.

[dmc]

But then the comparitively small size of motorcycles doesnt exactly make them as easy to spot as a car many times wider and longer etc. Thats a stark reality, also the need to treat every other road user as an idiot and to make them aware of your presence. Its easy to blame everything else and much of the blame is justified, but motorcyclists must also themselves do more to cut back the drain on ACC. And all those affected by ACC levies, not just motorcyclists.

What I'm saying is a fluro vest isn't going to do fark all compared to fixing driver attitude, I can have a flashing light on my head and people will still not see me and thats not just on a bike, I get carved up in my car far more often than on my bike because sadly people are just stupid.

[spinergy]

With effort I am sure a clever lad like you can figure out how that wealthy 1% can pay enough tax for the rest to survive on with their lazy arses on the couch and their gobs firmly stuck to the welfare tit.

Nice work bundling everyone who isn't the 1% in with people on welfare. I'm not the 1% but I'm sure as shit no bludger. Ten to one says most of us here work hard, pay our taxes and don't expect a hand out from anyone.

[LBD]

Irrespective of which way people will claim to vote before the election, after the election you can ask anyone "Did you vote for the party that got 65% of the votes?"

90% will say no.