Formula 5 question?

[husaberg]

I'm a bit gutted that NO2 isn't allowed. .

Your telling me probably not as gutted as I was. Although I felt a lot better after I ate the Chocolate fish I had brought for Jason to settle the bet.
The thing the MNZ cretins never picked up on was it is not a fuel. It is an oxidiser.

.there are tiny turbo's out there, and it is quite possible to make them smaller to accommodate the smaller engine displacement.
The engineering is extensive for sure, and the limiting factor in my opinion .

For sure but probably not worth it when supercharging is so much easier.
I still stick by the original bit about the best results either way would be with a twin. (more weight)
The last project I gave a rough costing to was over $5000. It could be done cheaper of course if all the right parts come up at the right time.

The ancillary parts are the real killer for money and for space.

[Bert]

Your telling me probably not as gutted as I was although after I ate the Chocolate fish I had brought for Jason to settle the bet. I felt a lot better.
The thing the MNZ cretins never picked up on was it is not a fuel it is an oxidiser.
.

what about increasing the dissolved oxygen levels in the fuel???
http://www.patents.com/us-6273072.html

we use a similar technique for the calibration of environmental sensors
(can't really get 100% saturation but you can get to about 90% at 15 degrees; which is about a 30% increase in dissolved oxygen).

no idea what the levels are in fuel nor what improvement to combustion it would even make???

I did read somewhere that the biggest improvement to fuel is to keep it as cold as you can (on ice in the shade); in essence will stop the losses of both small chain hydrocarbons and dissolved oxygen levels. thus the above kind of makes sense...

[husaberg]

what about increasing the dissolved oxygen levels in the fuel???
http://www.patents.com/us-6273072.html

we use a similar technique for the calibration of environmental sensors
(can't really get 100% saturation but you can get to about 90% at 15 degrees; which is about a 30% increase in dissolved oxygen).

no idea what the levels are in fuel nor what improvement to combustion it would even make???

I did read somewhere that the biggest improvement to fuel is to keep it as cold as you can (on ice in the shade); in essence will stop the losses of both small chain hydrocarbons and dissolved oxygen levels. thus the above kind of makes sense...

Some of the race fuels have this but again its illegal to modify the fuel in a bucket.



If you wanted to go the whole hog in a Forced aspirated the 80's F1 fuel Jungle juice was 84 percent Toluene (available from almost any fuel distributer)the rest was N heptane.

No doubt it is in unleaded fuel now in NZ.

They also used to add water to the fuel as well after briefly using water injection. Not as easy as it sounds, do not try this a home.http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110213/article.html

In a modded car it can be used, Either on demand with either a micro switch or preferable a pressure switch triggered by the boost level that it is required at.

I have an article about it from one of my fav Tech editors I will post later.

[TZ350]

Oxiginating pump gas http://www.patents.com/us-6273072.html

"A combustion engine fuel system apparatus saturates and diffuses a gas, such a air, into a liquid fuel."

Thats an interesting idea, diffusing air (oxigen) into the fuel on its way to the carb in much the same way as Co2 is diffused into softdrinks, now there is a thought.

(pls don't try this with raw oxygen unless spontanious combustion is your thing, those warnings about grease and oil on oxygen gauges arn't there just for fun)

but again its illegal to modify the fuel in a bucket.

Which rule covers it?

[husaberg]

Oxiginating pump gas http://www.patents.com/us-6273072.html

"A combustion engine fuel system apparatus saturates and diffuses a gas, such a air, into a liquid fuel."

Thats an interesting idea, diffusing air (oxigen) into the fuel on its way to the carb in much the same way as Co2 is diffused into softdrinks, now there is a thought.

(pls don't try this with raw oxygen unless spontanious combustion is your thing, those warnings about grease and oil on oxygen gauges arn't there just for fun)



Which rule covers it?

It would be the fuel one? why?
http://www.mnz.co.nz/competitionrules.aspx
Appendix E oxygenates.

you can just give the Choc Fish direct to Jason U. I think he is also willing to accept Peanut slabs.

[Grumph]

When is open fuel not open ? When it's limited to Methanol....

Back in the day, Tolulene was very useful in bikes here in Nz because it simplified the fuel delivery system...

Ford found when they went to Indy with the pushrod V8's that an 80/20 meth/tol blend gave 20% better economy than straight meth...one pitstop less at Indy. When both straight meth and the blend were optimised straight meth won out by 2% on HP but as I said the blend was 20% better on economy.
How does this help us ? For one thing you can run it through taps sized for petrol...and use a carb set for a rich petrol mixture rather than modified for meth. The blend keeps better than straight meth too - less willing to pick up water.

The blend was a great base for adding nitro too - keep the same tol % but reduce the meth content, replacing with nitro. The tol seemed to assist in lighting the mixture.

Ah, the memories...and the smells....

[speedpro]

In a modded car it can be used, Either on demand with either a micro switch or preferable a pressure switch triggered by the boost level that it is required at.

What I did for my on-boost fuel enhancement was cast a cylinder and piston. The piston has a spring on one side and boost pressure on the other. The spring has a threaded adjuster to vary the preload and therefore the boost pressure at which the piston lifts off it's seat. Screwed into the piston is a 6mm shaft which extends through a seal into a fuel metering cavity. At the end of the shaft is a tapered needle which projects through a jet. With no boost the needle seats on the jet with an o-ring completely sealing off the fuel flow. Boost pressure at which it activates is adjusted with the spring preload, Initial fuel flow is set by the needle base diameter and the jet size, and the fuel delivery progression is controlled by the needle taper being lifted through the jet as boost is increased. One "problem" I had was getting a good seal where the shaft went through the seal. In the end I figured it was better without a good seal because even with a short small diameter delivery tube from the valve to the carb there was a brief delay every time it opened before the extra fuel got to the carb inlet. With a poor seal a little inlet manifold pressure leaked past the seal and blew the fuel down down the delivery tube.

I also reconfigured one to control the pressure in the fuel tank. Manifold pressure is used to pressurize the tank. At startup the tank is pressurized manually but once running relies on manifold pressure to keep the pressure up. The problem I had was that pressure would drop and not enough fuel would flow to the carb to create much boost for long. I needed a device that would flow a lot of air to pressurize the tank but which also limited the pressure to a set value.

I still have a few I haven't machined yet.

[husaberg]

When is open fuel not open ? When it's limited to Methanol....

Back in the day, Tolulene was very useful in bikes here in Nz because it simplified the fuel delivery system...

Ford found when they went to Indy with the pushrod V8's that an 80/20 meth/tol blend gave 20% better economy than straight meth...one pitstop less at Indy. When both straight meth and the blend were optimised straight meth won out by 2% on HP but as I said the blend was 20% better on economy.
How does this help us ? For one thing you can run it through taps sized for petrol...and use a carb set for a rich petrol mixture rather than modified for meth. The blend keeps better than straight meth too - less willing to pick up water.

The blend was a great base for adding nitro too - keep the same tol % but reduce the meth content, replacing with nitro. The tol seemed to assist in lighting the mixture.

Ah, the memories...and the smells....

Yes the old rules used to allow a wee bit of Acetone as well to assist in the mixing of oil in the two strokes great stuff back in the leaded days.

[speedpro]

When is open fuel not open ? When it's limited to Methanol....

Back in the day, Tolulene was very useful in bikes here in Nz because it simplified the fuel delivery system...

Ford found when they went to Indy with the pushrod V8's that an 80/20 meth/tol blend gave 20% better economy than straight meth...one pitstop less at Indy. When both straight meth and the blend were optimised straight meth won out by 2% on HP but as I said the blend was 20% better on economy.
How does this help us ? For one thing you can run it through taps sized for petrol...and use a carb set for a rich petrol mixture rather than modified for meth. The blend keeps better than straight meth too - less willing to pick up water.

The blend was a great base for adding nitro too - keep the same tol % but reduce the meth content, replacing with nitro. The tol seemed to assist in lighting the mixture.

Ah, the memories...and the smells....

I've still got a tin of Toluol in the shed. I quickly learnt which type of plastic jug to use when mixing. I was running 75% Methanol, 25% 100 octane, a litre of Toluol for every 20L of mix, and enough Acetone to blend - about 400mL per 20L. You needed all the doors and windows open as well when mixing - some serious fumes from that stuff.

The unleaded shit we buy for fuel now has a high percentage of Toluol/Toluene which is the reason why there was a few car fires after the switch from leaded to unleaded - the fuel lines were dissolved, only if they were using crap plastic line from the local hardware store.

[husaberg]

What I did for my on-boost fuel enhancement was cast a cylinder and piston. The piston has a spring on one side and boost pressure on the other. The spring has a threaded adjuster to vary the preload and therefore the boost pressure at which the piston lifts off it's seat. Screwed into the piston is a 6mm shaft which extends through a seal into a fuel metering cavity. At the end of the shaft is a tapered needle which projects through a jet. With no boost the needle seats on the jet with an o-ring completely sealing off the fuel flow. Boost pressure at which it activates is adjusted with the spring preload, Initial fuel flow is set by the needle base diameter and the jet size, and the fuel delivery progression is controlled by the needle taper being lifted through the jet as boost is increased. One "problem" I had was getting a good seal where the shaft went through the seal. In the end I figured it was better without a good seal because even with a short small diameter delivery tube from the valve to the carb there was a brief delay every time it opened before the extra fuel got to the carb inlet. With a poor seal a little inlet manifold pressure leaked past the seal and blew the fuel down down the delivery tube.

I also reconfigured one to control the pressure in the fuel tank. Manifold pressure is used to pressurize the tank. At startup the tank is pressurized manually but once running relies on manifold pressure to keep the pressure up. The problem I had was that pressure would drop and not enough fuel would flow to the carb to create much boost for long. I needed a device that would flow a lot of air to pressurize the tank but which also limited the pressure to a set value.

I still have a few I haven't machined yet.

Thanks Mike.
I just assumed you meant a bleed i had not long finished editing my reply to your origional after i clicked on to it on rereading it. If you go back a page there is a pic of it on the Autospeed. site I can spend hours there.http://autospeed.com/cms/A_107770/article.html

[Grumph]

If you have a sealed tank you shouldn't need a vast quantity of pressure air. I've seen a roadrace sidecar which had a small accumulator which was pumped up prior to use and pressurised the tank to 5 psi via a regulator. Good for a days racing at least.
Frame spars can and have been used for the same purpose.

[speedpro]

I could leave it sitting in the garage and it would hold pressure fine. However in use the pressure dropped quickly on the first lap and basically you had to give it a bit of boost to keep the tank pressure up initially which could be a bit spooky on cold tyres etc.

[jasonu]

The unleaded shit we buy for fuel now has a high percentage of Toluol/Toluene which is the reason why there was a few car fires after the switch from leaded to unleaded - the fuel lines were dissolved, only if they were using crap plastic line from the local hardware store.

In the mid 90's they started importing petrol from (I think) some Asian country and that is when, as Mike said, there were car fires caused by fuel lines dissolving. IIRC it was mostly old shitters like cortinas. My bucket ran like shit on the new fuel so I resorted to illegal Avgas. I didn't make any secret about it and nobody objected. The bike didn't run any better on av than it did on the old leaded stuff but it did run properly.

[speedpro]

Thanks Mike.
I just assumed you meant a bleed i had not long finished editing my reply to your origional after i clicked on to it on rereading it. If you go back a page there is a pic of it on the Autospeed. site I can spend hours there.http://autospeed.com/cms/A_107770/article.html

That was something else. The bleed device was a restrictor with a variable bleed off to atmosphere. The more bleed the higher boost was needed to actuate the waste gate. The restrictor slowed down filling the volume which "delayed" the actuation of the waste gate which resulted in a momentary overboost which most engines can handle. We're only talking +3 to 5psi for say 2 or 3 seconds.

[husaberg]

That was something else. The bleed device was a restrictor with a variable bleed off to atmosphere. The more bleed the higher boost was needed to actuate the waste gate. The restrictor slowed down filling the volume which "delayed" the actuation of the waste gate which resulted in a momentary overboost which most engines can handle. We're only talking +3 to 5psi for say 2 or 3 seconds.

I was meaning this one

One of the things you can do to increase the rate of spool-up is to plumb in a volume between the manifold and the wastegate actuator with a small bleed controller. This causes delay in actuating the waste gate as the volume takes time to fill through the bleed so the pressure at the actuator stays low for longer and the wastegate stays closed for longer allowing maximum gas flow "through" the turbo. This also has the added advantage if the motor is already making power but off boost that you will get a momentary over-boost when you open the throttle. I played with this on a Nissan Gazelle with an RB20DET and it worked real good. With the bleed controller I machined up I could easily control the momentary overboost and max boost as well. The Gazelle only ran 5lbs stock but was quite happy with 11lbs on the dyno and the gas analyzer.

With even the smallest turbo though I don't think it's going to be an issue as getting any boost will be a problem on a bucket engine.

As stated also if the turbo suits the engine the power curve will be huge and flat if all is well, and by winding in the waste gate for more peak boost it will also have an effect on spool-up and off-peak boost available as wastegates creep open bleeding off gas before peak boost value is reached which slows spool-up. I ran 19psi in my big bike at Taupo once and it pulled noticeably more boost at various revs lower down when the throttle was opened.