Democracy, freedom and the right to vote!

[oneofsix]

Bling to you. I feel the same way.

I grew up in a New Zealand where everyone had a job.

State Housing was high quality, and coal, firewood and electricity was plentiful and cheap, so we were never cold.

We had the best health system in the world, and we rewarded ourselves with free universities, which we paid ourselves to study at.

Pensions were generous and a leg of lamb cost about 20 minutes pay, so we ate well and were possibly the healthiest people on the planet.

Me, and those of my generation have now created a new world.

We have created massive wealth for some, but send 250,000 kids to school each day from families entirely dependent on welfare.
Our health systems creak and are out of reach for many.

We reformed everything, and somehow lost of touch of what had made us happy and wealthy.

I don't know the solutions, but I look at what we are building nervously.

We seem to be sitting back while our governments quietly build themselves the tools of tyranny, comforting ourselves that only the bad have something to fear.

I expect my Grandchildren will be tracked at every move, will have their opinions controlled and censored, and will exist only to ensure the state gets its pound.

I feel you take a bit too much of the blame on yourself. You probably yelled and shouted the warnings. complained about the changes but were ignored, I know I have and still am. We, as in NZ, have just elected a government the prescribes more of the same of what took us from that Utopia to where we are now and yet the 'we' expect this to make live better. We, you oldrider and me, never lost touch with what made us happy and wealthy it is just that more devious people stole it under the guise of such things as the IMF and the UN and the wonderful free market. I too worry about the grandkids, their parents are already being brainwashed to tell everyone everything about themselves through the likes of Facespy etc, no need for the old KGB trick of using the neighbour to spy on you

[BoristheBiter]

Bling to you. I feel the same way.

I grew up in a New Zealand where everyone had a job.

State Housing was high quality, and coal, firewood and electricity was plentiful and cheap, so we were never cold.

We had the best health system in the world, and we rewarded ourselves with free universities, which we paid ourselves to study at.

Pensions were generous and a leg of lamb cost about 20 minutes pay, so we ate well and were possibly the healthiest people on the planet.

Me, and those of my generation have now created a new world.

We have created massive wealth for some, but send 250,000 kids to school each day from families entirely dependent on welfare.
Our health systems creak and are out of reach for many.

We reformed everything, and somehow lost of touch of what had made us happy and wealthy.

I don't know the solutions, but I look at what we are building nervously.

We seem to be sitting back while our governments quietly build themselves the tools of tyranny, comforting ourselves that only the bad have something to fear.

I expect my Grandchildren will be tracked at every move, will have their opinions controlled and censored, and will exist only to ensure the state gets its pound.

We became lazy, expected others to do things for us and live a lifestyle we could not pay for.
HP, credit cards and the like have a lot to answer for. If we wanted a new tv, car, phone etc back then we had to save for it and our credit rating meant everything.

Government are only put there by the voters. If you want to vote for a party because they will give you free money, labour's student loan scam is the classic example, then what do you expect.

[F5 Dave]

. . . If you want to vote for a party because they will give you free money, . . ..

Is this thread still going? Oh well, my parting comment is that one of the parties when making election promises did something a bit grotesque. They actually put a $ figure on how much they would pay for the votes. What was it? $1500 I think.

- but the clever bit is they were buying votes knowing that they would never have to honour the pledge as they would never get in. But it paid for probably a few more seats than they may have gotten. Clever & Evil.

[avgas]

Bling to you. I feel the same way.

I grew up in a New Zealand where everyone had a job.

State Housing was high quality, and coal, firewood and electricity was plentiful and cheap, so we were never cold.

We had the best health system in the world, and we rewarded ourselves with free universities, which we paid ourselves to study at.

Pensions were generous and a leg of lamb cost about 20 minutes pay, so we ate well and were possibly the healthiest people on the planet.

Me, and those of my generation have now created a new world.

You son of a bitch.
I didn't get any of those things......
sucks to be me

[avgas]

That's fucking brilliant!!
Wonder why is wasn't on the referendum thingie....

Because it used to be common sense.
If I didn't like something I had every right to say "Get fucked" and look elsewhere.
When it comes to government, seems there is no way to not be fucked. Its a silly game of "I will vote for this person, to stop that one".

I don't play games that are on such a serious matter. If you don't like something you have every right to simply walk away from it.
Common sense states that if no one likes it - it should be gone. Seems the only except to the rule is the government.......who seem to write their own rules.

It wasn't on the referendum because they don't actually care about what people think. They never did. And until there is a riot in the streets asking for their heads - they will only step down on their own accord. Its a pity that 70% of NZers are trying to see if the system works.
Isn't insanity defined as doing something over and over again expecting a different result?
Who's votes wasted now?

[Ocean1]

If I didn't like something I had every right to say "Get fucked" and look elsewhere.

You still do, I don't consider anyone has the authority to take that from us.

I take advantage of it regularly.

[BoristheBiter]

Because it used to be common sense.
If I didn't like something I had every right to say "Get fucked" and look elsewhere.
When it comes to government, seems there is no way to not be fucked. Its a silly game of "I will vote for this person, to stop that one".

I don't play games that are on such a serious matter. If you don't like something you have every right to simply walk away from it.
Common sense states that if no one likes it - it should be gone. Seems the only except to the rule is the government.......who seem to write their own rules.

It wasn't on the referendum because they don't actually care about what people think. They never did. And until there is a riot in the streets asking for their heads - they will only step down on their own accord. Its a pity that 70% of NZers are trying to see if the system works.
Isn't insanity defined as doing something over and over again expecting a different result?
Who's votes wasted now?

Well thats MMP for ya.

[oneofsix]

Well thats MMP for ya.

what the fuck has that to do with MMP?

[BoristheBiter]

what the fuck has that to do with MMP?

Everything.
The top party, after an election, has to make a coalition with whom ever they are able and because of that some fringe party gets their policy in so we end up with policy that no one likes.

So that is where the common sense has gone.

[davereid]

Everything.
The top party, after an election, has to make a coalition with whom ever they are able and because of that some fringe party gets their policy in so we end up with policy that no one likes.

So that is where the common sense has gone.

They would not have passed the 5% or electorate threshold if no one liked them.

But democracy is an entire toolbox of things. The hammer in the box is the election, its the biggest tool and it can effect the most change in the shortest time.

But the other tools are also very important, they are supposed to survive changes in government, and ensure that we enjoy the benefits of democracy and freedom all the time, not just in the five weeks before an election.

I'm watching as our government side tracks us with debate about the hammer, its weight colour and handle shape, while they are quietly removing all the other tools from the box.

Those who see it and comment get told they are paranoid, that its for good reason, or that the government would never do us harm.

But a brief look at history tells us we are at much at risk from those who profess to care, as we are from those who profess to hate.

[BoristheBiter]

They would not have passed the 5% or electorate threshold if no one liked them.

But democracy is an entire toolbox of things. The hammer in the box is the election, its the biggest tool and it can effect the most change in the shortest time.

But the other tools are also very important, they are supposed to survive changes in government, and ensure that we enjoy the benefits of democracy and freedom all the time, not just in the five weeks before an election.

I'm watching as our government side tracks us with debate about the hammer, its weight colour and handle shape, while they are quietly removing all the other tools from the box.

Those who see it and comment get told they are paranoid, that its for good reason, or that the government would never do us harm.

But a brief look at history tells us we are at much at risk from those who profess to care, as we are from those who profess to hate.

act or united future didn't get 5%, I think they got 1%, and those two hold the balance of power.

Can you tell me what tools we have lost so far and what impact it has had on me as I am yet to see anything.

[scumdog]

We became lazy, expected others to do things for us and live a lifestyle we could not pay for.
HP, credit cards and the like have a lot to answer for. If we wanted a new tv, car, phone etc back then we had to save for it and our credit rating meant everything.

t.

What's this 'we' paleface??

But you're right re the credit thing and easy loans.

Thats' one thing the Government COULD interfere with I reckon.

(i.e. "In my day" to buy a car from a dealer (no bank woule lend you money for a fripery like a car) you had to have two-thirds of the price in cash as a deposit, half the price if you were buying a ute)

How many 17 to 25 year-olds are up to their neck in hock due to easy loans - at 20%+ interest?

[imdying]

Thats' one thing the Government COULD interfere with I reckon.

(i.e. "In my day" to buy a car from a dealer (no bank woule lend you money for a fripery like a car) you had to have two-thirds of the price in cash as a deposit, half the price if you were buying a ute)

How many 17 to 25 year-olds are up to their neck in hock due to easy loans - at 20%+ interest?

Goody, more laws to cater to the lowest common denominator.

[davereid]

Can you tell me what tools we have lost so far and what impact it has had on me as I am yet to see anything.

No single law has entirely emptied the tool box. But for some "good causes" you have lost :

(1) The presumption of innocence. There are now several laws that assume you are guilty until you prove, at your cost that you are not.
(2) The right to be tried by a jury. The threshold has been raised, and majority verdicts are on the agenda.
(3) The right to remain silent. Long gone, in fact if you don't answer questions, and provide the evidence on request you are now in many cases fu*ked.
(4) Freedom from search and seizure. Now in many circumstances gone. You may be held, and searched now under numerous laws, without warrant or even cause.
(5) The right not to be punished before convicted of a crime. We now have many laws on the books where the punishment is applied before the court hearing. If you are innocent, well, if you have enough money you may be able to get reparation.
(6) The right to associate with people of your choice. Long gone. The government can decide that.
(7) You are now censored. You now need permission under many circumstances to state facts, or to view material, which while the behavior is legal, the state restricts your access to. And your internet is blocked - the state decides what gives you a 404 error.

Your passport photo, the cameras at the border, your drivers licence photo, those new cameras at the supermarket, all create a signature, which follows you as clearly as a bar code on your face.

Don't believe me ? Send the agencies in question an OIA request. I have. They are all doing it, and working out how to share that barcode.

No national ID card yet ? well, NZ has done better than the rest of the world. They all want you to have a card you carry. Our lot saw we wouldn't like that. So they have done a "virtual" (and voluntary as long as you don't want to get a benefit, pay tax or drive) ID card.

In the next few years you will have to go to the Post Office and get your IGOVT photo ID card. The clever bit is you don't need to carry it, or even really know it even exists. (Actually, you can go in March next year if you want to, thats kick off day)

As you walk around, you face provides your ID number. No card, just a digital one at Govt ID HQ.

There will of course be "good reasons" why all these losses of our democracy, freedom and privacy have occurred.

They will all be justifiable, and of course you will be protected. No problem eh.

[mashman]

Thats' one thing the Government COULD interfere with I reckon.

They already are, but not in the direction you want them too ... what would the banks say to a govt sticking its nose into their business... other than, go take a flying fuck to yourself ex-prime minister