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Thread: Race chassis

  1. #1036
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    Frits, your race activities were at a significantly higher level than mine and money/careers were at stake. It doesn't matter how many wonderful secret ideas I have, I'm still not a fast rider so all they really end up doing is make me feel good.

    If a tuner comes up with something that gives an advantage, they'd of course want to keep it for them self as long as possible. But that is keeping their own idea secret, not someone else's. If they come up with a modification/improvement of someone else's idea, then that mod seems fair to me to hold close.

    cheers,
    Michael

  2. #1037
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    I can very well understand being secretive about using someone else's good idea. If the idea really is that good, you try to keep your competitors from finding out about it as long as you can. Having said that, I fully agree that credit should be given where credit is due.

    Scrutineers don't sign NDAs. If you won't let them check your bike, you're not going to race, simple as that. But scrutineers have a general obligation to keep their mouth shut about anything they see. It doesn't always work that way in practice...
    Very true...as it happens when the bike came back for recheck, I was busy with a lad from a well known race family here in NZ who was trying to convince me to pass his TZ with his wet rims fitted - less discs....Some mothers do 'av em...So my off sider passed it. The team member who made the steering damper had waited till John was out of sight and come over to thank me. They'd been trying to get John to fit steering stops for months apparently.
    Odd setup where you have to wait for officials to sort out a basic error in construction.

    No one was interested in why it had failed. That was the season here where John had been paid by MNZ to front the bikes at NZ championship events - and it had just got out a day or so before...His competitors were enraged that they were paying him to race against them....

  3. #1038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumph View Post
    Very true...as it happens when the bike came back for recheck, I was busy with a lad from a well known race family here in NZ who was trying to convince me to pass his TZ with his wet rims fitted - less discs....Some mothers do 'av em...So my off sider passed it. The team member who made the steering damper had waited till John was out of sight and come over to thank me. They'd been trying to get John to fit steering stops for months apparently.
    Odd setup where you have to wait for officials to sort out a basic error in construction.

    No one was interested in why it had failed. That was the season here where John had been paid by MNZ to front the bikes at NZ championship events - and it had just got out a day or so before...His competitors were enraged that they were paying him to race against them....
    Lots of people used to use the circlip on a rear disc master cylinder as a brake stop as well.
    *I note the steering damper broke at Monza locking the steering.
    I think the main problem is illistrated by how the complete spars would likely have to be remade to accomidate a sterering stops as you can't just weld on some stops.
    https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/bri...visionary-1993
    I picked Shands voice well before i seen him

    oh here is one on Bamboo dick
    https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/richard-pearse-1975

    Britten's girder forked parallelogram
    John Britten recently died of cancer in late 1995. Although his death is considered by some to be the greatest loss to modern motorcycling, his legacy lives on in his V-1100 supertwin race bike. For most of the motorcycles featured in this paper, their alternative front suspension systems are their raison d'etre. Not so for the Britten. While the Britten has an alternative front suspension system, it has a whole host of other technological marvels as well.
    The first iteration of John Britten's race bike used a traditional White Power upside-down telescopic fork. In a move for more rigidity, suspension geometry flexibility, and the ability to separate suspension and braking forces, Britten created a new front end. Britten's handmade alternative front suspension is a modern redevelopment of Norman Hossack's girder/wishbone parallelogram suspension or systems designed by Claude Fior. The Hossack design was an update of the Vincent Girdraulic fork which itself was an update of systems used at the dawn of motorcycling (Alan Cathcart, Superbike Magazine, January 1993). This fourth design iteration was chosen, much like the SaxTrak, because of the versatility of the geometry. But it is a girder fork nonetheless.

    Britten had four reasons for scrapping the proven race-quality White Power telescopic fork. He wanted to eliminate sliding friction under braking, raise rigidity, create an adjustable system, and reduce weight. While achieving all of these goals, Britten also managed to reduce wheel chatter common on telescopic forks, enhance braking, and improve handling (Cameron, 1992:36).

    Because the girder design uses rotational bearings in place of telescoping bearings on traditional forks, bearing area and motion is significantly reduced and stiction under braking is almost eliminated. The telescoping action of traditional forks means that the front wheel is constantly accelerating or decelerating relative to the bike itself. This relative motion of the wheel and tire must either be absorbed by the tire, the fork or the brakes and often manifest itself as a "chatter" in any or all of those components. The wide expanses of carbon fiber and the girder design assure that unlike traditional systems, the front wheel position relative to the bike is constant even with extreme suspension movement. This creates a more stable platform under extreme forces (better braking) and a more direct feeling as rigidity is increased (better handling).

    In order to create an adjustable system, Britten knew that a double wishbone system would be the most flexible design. Either length or angle of either wishbone in the parallelogram could be changed to affect the handling of the suspension. Britten's system can be set up for no dive under braking, pro-dive or anti-dive or a combination of any of these. At the moment current racers, having grown up on telescopic forks, like the reassurance of dive under braking. Thus Britten has set up the forks currently to dive for the first 80mm of travel and then rise for the last 40mm (Cameron, 1992:38). But as racers begin to understand the strengths of Britten's design, the fork geometry can be setup for any desired action: constant wheelbase, pro-dive, anti-dive, no-dive or any combination of these. Single wishbone systems, such as the Bimota Tesi, are not nearly as adjustable by design. The two purpose-built racebikes discussed here (the Saxon-Triumph and Britten) both have adjustable steering geometry to make a bike that can be competitive at different kinds of racetracks. By design, materials and construction, Britten was able to lighten the weight of the whole front end, reducing polar moment and making for lighter steering and better handling overall.

    The Britten girder fork also has another key benefit it shares with all of the alternative suspension systems discussed in this paper. It too suspends with a modern nitrogen-charged Ohlins monoshock, probably the best developed if not most researched suspension device made. Thus it too does away with the problems of trying to make both forks in a telescopic system do the same thing at the same time. The one shock is easily adjustable, accessible, rebuildable, and lighter than the suspension systems held within the fork tubes of a traditional system.

    The faults in the Britten girder parallelogram suspension are few. One issue in common with the SaxTrak and Telelever designs discussed above is that the braking forces do not have the shortest or most direct path to the frame. In all three cases, forces acting on the tire and wheel must travel some distance up mock fork tubes or a carbon fiber girder to reach arms that attach to the engine or frame. The later discussed RADD and Tesi systems have the shortest path possible for braking forces into the frame and do so at a lower height on the bike, lowering the center of gravity and easing steering. The low weight of the Britten system in addition to the rigidity of the materials make that fault almost imperceptible. Britten has shown us that an updated version of the girder fork that was used at the dawn of motorcycling is still a viable option that has many benefits of traditional telescopic forks.

    More than any other motorcycle in the world, the Britten V-1100 showcases the integration of a host of design features that, given a clean sheet of paper and an unlimited budget, designers would unerringly adopt as the best way to achieve a given design target. Features that for commercial or marketing reasons, they are simply unable to adopt themselves. Alan Cathcart, Superbike, May 1993, p.42.
    Extract from an article first published in “Fast Bikes” magazine.
    © Ian R Cramp September 2000


    People in pubs are very quick to condemn telescopic forks, and they usually have any number of perfectly sound reasons to back up their views – too heavy, stiction, lack of rigidity, poor geometry, etc etc. However, the telescopic front fork has been with us in a relatively unchanged form for about 50 years, so there must be something good about it. As is so often the case in engineering, some solutions don't look particularly good, but when there is no "good" answer to be found, you have to go for the one that is the least bad. Maybe this is the case with a tele – it has its faults, but it does the job, and nothing else has threatened it despite the best efforts of whole pubs full of engineers for decades.

    I therefore started my investigation into my funny front end from the opposite direction – by having a good look at conventional forks, and working out what were their good points, which had made them so popular for so long. I decided, after a great deal of thinking and research, that the most important thing of all was the way you could mount clip-ons directly to the fork tubes. Being able to feel what the front tyre is doing is crucial to controlling a bike, and any system which has a sloppy linkage between the tyre contact patch and the handlebars is therefore an instant non-starter. The Bimota Tesi was particularly shite in this respect, and so was the first Elf, though the Elf team soon learned from their mistakes and their later versions had a much more direct and rigid steering link which was nowhere near as bad.

    Secondly, whilst telescopic forks are heavy, a fair proportion of that weight is sprung. Weight is always a bad thing on a bike, but unsprung weight is double-bad. If you look at many really quite well thought out funny front end designs (like the BMW Telelever and the Tryphonos, for example) you see that they carry much more unsprung weight; things like the steering head, bearings, clamps, and other stuff which are mounted on sprung parts of the bike in a conventional setup become unsprung in these arrangements. Not good.

    Another key advantage of forks is their geometry. People can write whole books about offset, trail, and the simple up/down travel of a tele, but the bottom line is that it appears to work better than anything else using current technology. Aha, the pub philosophers say as they prop up the bar, but as you brake and the front dives, so the rake, trail, and wheelbase change. Well, yes, but so what? It seems to work pretty well, so what the hell? It can't be denied that some other systems, with different (they say "better") geometries, which maintain a constant trail or a constant castor or a constant this and a constant that, nevertheless feel rather weird to the fellow holding the bars. Since absolute confidence in the ability of the bike to react as it intuitively should at all times is the most vital part of riding quickly on unfamiliar roads, systems like this were to be rejected out of hand as far as I was concerned.

    A big problem with bikes is that they need a lot of suspension movement, and this makes it very difficult to find any suspension system, other than teles, with the right geometry. Modern racing cars have so little suspension movement that there are actually not even any balljoints on the ends of an F1 car's wishbones – the flex of the joint itself is all that's required. By contrast, bikes have about ten times as much movement for each end, and this means big problems for geometry. For example, if a car's wishbone is two feet long, it will always be sitting at pretty much the same angle when the end moves half an inch or so. The opposite applies to a bike. Taking the rear swinging-arm as an example, it must allow about six inches of travel, and as it's only a foot and a half long, it must move through about 15 degrees of arc – therefore having a huge effect on the geometry of the rear end. The longer you make the arm, the less is the angle it must move through – which is why we have a trend towards longer and longer swinging arms, and why the Yamaha YZF-R1 therefore has a stacked gearbox.

    Now, as the arm gets longer, the path through which the wheel spindle moves becomes straighter. If you could make the swinging arm infinitely long, the spindle would move through a straight line – just like a telescopic fork! Years ago, there were actually rear ends like this on bikes before swinging arms became the norm – the Norton plunger or the Triumph sprung hub for example. The problem with having straight-line motion of the rear spindle, however, is that the chain tension changes too much with suspension movement. The angularity problem associated with front swingarms also applies to leading and trailing link type front forks, which are surprisingly popular; ten million Honda C50s can’t be wrong, and Moto Guzzi fitted them to their GP bikes for years with some success. I’m not sure about this, but I believe that Bob MacIntire had leading-link forks fitted to the Gilera on which he set the first ever 100mph TT lap (don’t all write in if I’m wrong – the only reason I don’t know for sure is that one of those pub bikers borrowed the book and hasn’t given it back). JPS Norton-Cosworth Challenge bikes had a similar Earles-type set-up, which can be examined minutely at the National Motorcycle Museum, and systems were fitted to TZ350s as late as the 1980s by privateer riders who were only too happy to put the standard teles in the bin.

    Nevertheless, in light of what I've already said about steering links, geometry, and unsprung weight, I didn't consider having any sort of swinging-arm or link on the front; and anyway, it's already been done. Designs like the Bimota Tesi and the ASP are shite, but something like the Tryphonos project was as good as these things can get. There was no point in my trying another.

    Since I wasn't keen on going for teles, there was only one other choice really – the girder fork, as fitted to millions of bikes before the last war, and still very often seen in 1951, the notional "styling date" for my bike. To be honest, I often wonder why designers abandoned girder forks in the first place, as they're fine bits of kit. My trusty 1929 Velocette with its spindly girders that look like drinking straws is still plenty good enough for a knee-down now that it can be treated to modern tyres and tarmac. The conventional girder fork reached its apogee of development in the 1950s with the Vincent Black Lightning (this is the bike in the famous picture of the herbert doing 150mph on the Bonneville Salt Flats by lying flat and wearing only his swimming trunks). The Vincent’s girder fork legs were aluminium forgings – the perfect material for the job, though I thought I could make steel tube ones which would be stronger and just as light.

    The bike industry abandoned girder forks more or less by accident. There was nothing wrong with them at all really, but no-one bothered to fit them with good geometry or good damping (the technology of the time just wasn’t up to it, and with crap roads and tyres, no-one could go fast enough to notice). When Norton came along with their telescopic “Roadholder” forks, everyone assumed that the reason they were better than the girders of the day was simply because they were telescopic. Not so; it was that the package allowed enough space for the designer to get a half-reasonable spring-damper unit on the front end of a bike for the first time. Also, I'm sure that the public were influenced by the idea of buying a bike with what they thought was the same sort of suspension as Geoff Duke was using on his Norton GP bike, and all of the British manufacturers immediately jumped on to the fashion bandwagon. Italians were not influenced by the fashion in the same way, and they went on to kick Norton’s arse with link-type suspensions for several years.

    Because girders faded away rather than being superseded, a few enlightened frame constructors have continued to use them in conjunction with the modern damping systems now available, which would have transformed the old ones. Hossack, Cobas, and ROC all had a go with varying degrees of success, but it was the Britten which really put girder forks back on the map – with a system which differs only in detail from the Vincent of fifty years before, with the aluminium forgings replaced by carbon fibre. Ironically, it was the carbon bits that gave the most trouble, with some frightening structural failures occurring before the design team got their act together.

    A crucial advantage of girders is that, because their movement is controlled by a couple of links (like wishbones), you can vary the geometry quite easily by changing the length and angles of these links. Rising-rate, falling-rate, anti-squat, anti-dive; rake, trail and offset either increasing, decreasing, or staying the same – all are more or less possible by changing the lengths and angles of a couple of links by a few millimetres or a few degrees. This is known in engineering as a four-bar link set-up, and it has been used to bore the arses off engineering students for centuries.

    The four-bar link is basically one fixed axis with a bar on each end, with the ends of those two bars joined by another link. By changing the lengths of the bars, an infinite variation of displacements, velocities, and accelerations is possible – turning the four-bar link into (for example) the double-wishbone set-up of a racing car, or the parallelogram rear suspension of a modern-day Moto Guzzi – or a front girder fork.

    Now, it so happens that when I was studying dynamics of mechanical systems at university, I was tortured at length with learning the ramifications of these great variations. I studied the geometries, the displacements, the velocities, the accelerations (both linear and angular) and I derived all sorts of equations for maximising, minimising, and optimising any or all of them. It wasn't boring in the way that watching a girder rust is boring, it was more like being methodically and rhythmically beaten over the head with a rusty girder. I was mightily pissed off, but I continued to wrestle with it manfully because, in my youthful naivety, I really thought that I would need to know all of it to become an engineer, and it would ultimately be very handy. Imagine my surprise when, nearly fifteen years later as I looked at this front end, it actually was – just about the first time that anything I was taught in university (apart from in the boxing club) has ever been of the remotest use.

    Because of what I said earlier about forks, I thought that it would be smart (and safe) to fix the geometry of my girders so they moved the front wheel in exactly the same way as a set of telescopics. This would mean that I wasn't sticking my neck out too much, and also that the front end would have the same sort of feel that riders are used to. It would have been an easy job to design such a system, but the large suspension movement of a bike caught me out yet again – the front wheel has to move about six inches up and down, and modern spring/damper units only have about two inches of travel, so that means you need some sort of link in the system – you can’t just bolt the bottom of the shock to the fork and the top of it to the top yoke. This threw a surprisingly big spanner into the works, and I had to study (and reject) many ways of getting round it before I came up with an acceptable solution.

    A spin-off from the solution I settled on – using the bottom link as a rocker to act on the bottom of the shock – was that the front end became genuinely rising-rate, that is geometrically rising-rate, without the need to put progressive springs and damping in like they do with some teles.

    A good rising-rate characteristic is vital on a front end. It must provide the lightest of springing and damping to cope with keeping the bike pointing in the right direction when hard on the power (so there’s hardly any weight on the front and the tyre is barely skimming the surface), and also it must be beefy enough to absorb bumps even when hard on the brakes, when the back wheel is off the deck and the nose is trying to bury itself into the ground. The conventional solution, largely pioneered in the 1970s by Kenny Roberts Snr, Yamaha, and their Ohlins partners, centres around dual-rate springs (soft for most of their travel, but much harder for the last bit) with the latest refinement being dual-rate damping (ie damping which can be set to respond to high-speed and low-speed movements differently). Obviously, this works very well indeed, and with a set of forks costing eight grand it bloody well should do, too. I was hoping that my scheme could be just as good, but lighter and more rigid, as well as looking the part for a classically-styled bike and being able to use a £600 over-the-counter shock absorber to do all of the springing and damping required.

    Even though I had most of the basics of the design sorted in less than a day, I spent more than a week agonising over various aspects, and I’m still not happy about some of them. It makes sense to get your worries in sooner rather than later, because it’s a lot easier moving a line across a CAD screen than it is chopping bits of steel and moving them around when you find out, too late, that you’ve made a cock-up. For this reason, I like to put in a great deal of effort at the design stage, keeping the famous British Army dictum in mind – train hard, fight easy. Cutting metal is when the bullshit must stop – as you’ll find out in the next exciting episode, when my lily-white hands move off the keyboard and get down to some honest toil in the welding shop.
    http://www.cycleworld.com/2015/03/23...-kevin-cameron
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    Last edited by husaberg; 26th February 2017 at 15:26. Reason: pics to follow
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  4. #1039
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    Lots of people used to use the circlip on a rear disc master cylinder as a brake stop as well.
    *I note the steering damper broke at Monza locking the steering.
    I think the main problem is illistrated by how the complete spars would likely have to be remade to accomidate a sterering stops as you can't just weld on some stops.
    I picked Shands voice well before i seen him
    I understand the team had steering stops worked out and ready to fit - unknown to John.....
    I wrote the rule on brake pedal stops in the MNZ book....
    Shand's been quoted once above plus was responsible for the fight over appearance money. Lot of people never fogave him for that.

  5. #1040
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumph View Post
    I understand the team had steering stops worked out and ready to fit - unknown to John.....
    I wrote the rule on brake pedal stops in the MNZ book....
    Shand's been quoted once above plus was responsible for the fight over appearance money. Lot of people never fogave him for that.
    I hate that rule
    As i recall the MNZ's stance was the extra bums on seats more than paid for the Britten apperence money which was to cover travel etc.
    More of a worry was the changing of the rules that allowed the bikes to race in the then superbike class.
    But yeah i can confirm the two Johns were mates.
    Some pics the first two are not britten the first is Hossac but esentially the same. esp the second one
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  6. #1041
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    The upper left one with the Middleton link is CAD by Peter Fouché from the FF list.

    There's a fair bit of Norman's stuff on the new page on my website (mentioned a few posts earlier) that hasn't been seen before.

  7. #1042
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Moore View Post
    The upper left one with the Middleton link is CAD by Peter Fouché from the FF list.

    There's a fair bit of Norman's stuff on the new page on my website (mentioned a few posts earlier) that hasn't been seen before.
    Oh i just went off the pic name.
    with regards to the front end i think John never wanted side on pics was to do with the time it took him to figure out the link lengths and leverage ratios.
    I see personally very little difference between the Britten from end and a Web fork. Other than damper and materials. and a few details
    or a vincent set from later.
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    here is an early Fior pic
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    I don't recall John ever saying anything other than they were an updated vincent fork as was the chassis.
    As i said earlier he even asked Fior for help.
    The Britten to me wasn't about any one detail but a huge array of neat and clever stuff molded into into one cohesive vision that was actually sucessfull.
    http://www.racecraft.de/Projects/Gir...rder-fork.html
    These below are for a mountain bike but i sure like them, they look conventional as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  8. #1043
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    I see personally very little difference between the Britten from end and a Web fork. Other than damper and materials. and a few details or a vincent set from later.
    There is a fundamental difference: a Web fork like the Vincent has steered suspension; a Hossack fork like the Britten has suspended steering.

  9. #1044
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    Norman's later street bikes (like his current 800 Ducati) has both, since the damper attaches to the upright and pivots with it instead of attaching to the a-arm.

    http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/H...0124-2008a.jpg

    That does have the advantage of not feeding suspension loads into the lower ball joint, instead they go straight to the wheel bearings. I suspect it was also done when radiators started getting in the way of mounting dampers on the lower a-arm.

    cheers,
    Michael

  10. #1045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Moore View Post
    Norman's later street bikes (like his current 800 Ducati) has both, since the damper attaches to the upright and pivots with it instead of attaching to the a-arm. http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/H...0124-2008a.jpg
    That does have the advantage of not feeding suspension loads into the lower ball joint, instead they go straight to the wheel bearings. I suspect it was also done when radiators started getting in the way of mounting dampers on the lower a-arm.
    Found it.
    The ratio from wheel travel to shock travel appears to be about 1, and suspension units hardly offer more than 50 mm travel, so this would severely limit wheel travel, wouldn't it? It would also sacrifice the possibility of obtaining progressive suspension behaviour despite using a linear schock. And you need progressiveness up front.

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  11. #1046
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    FYI Norman's earlier patent is GB2121364a. On the most recent bike, his 800 Ducati, I think he's using an Ikon (Koni copy I think) from Australia. It doesn't seem a problem to get the small body dampers (Falcon, Ohlins, Penske, Noleen, anyone that does VMX dampers) with 100mm of travel.

    There are always trade-offs, the prioritization of them can sometimes vary between people.

  12. #1047
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    There is a fundamental difference: a Web fork like the Vincent has steered suspension; a Hossack fork like the Britten has suspended steering.
    Yes i kind of understood that, but what i was more getting at is it was a progressional evolution of the girder design, rather than a revolution.
    Look at swingarms, dual shock, cantalever, non linkage, linkage. Its a natural progession.


    To me all the wishbones are at the wrong end. ie they should be closer to the wheel.
    A simple mid 60's greeves style leading link seems to offer much greater oportunities for unsprung weight reduction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  13. #1048
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    The LLF, especially one with shorter links, offers less wheel path control than a dual-link/dual a-arm system like a Hossack or the girder. The LLF gives you an arc, the length of the link determines how flat that arc might be, and the relative heights of the axle and link pivot determine the ultimate wheel path. With the deformable quadrilateral you get more options (good as well as bad) on where the wheel goes. The distance the axle is from the pivots on the upright can have a big affect on things as a little change in the link geometry can be amplified quite a bit if the axle is farther away. I think LLFs have a lot to offer vs teleforks, but both are steered suspension systems.

    The automotive suspension illustration is a suspended steering system and so is different from a girder which is a steered suspension system.

    If you've got to have a steering head on the frame (one that is a big part of the structure and not just something light to support bars that link to the upright) on a relatively short travel (RR) chassis then the girder might well have some advantages over teleforks if properly designed and built. You could eliminate a lot of the sliding friction, there's more control over wheel path, the upright might be less flexible than telefork legs, and you can adjust dive/squat reactions. How things balance out between steered mass/radius of that mass, unsprung weight, etc is going to depend on the details.

    cheers,
    Michael

  14. #1049
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    I suspect neither you nor I, Michael, are dealing with up to date USD forks on a regular basis - and I certainly was not aware of how far the anti friction developments have gone. You really must get a copy of Mike Sinclair's book, he goes into good detail about how internal friction was reduced as the USD forks were developed.
    There's still returns to be had from "conventional" fork developments for a while yet.

  15. #1050
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Moore View Post
    The LLF, especially one with shorter links, offers less wheel path control than a dual-link/dual a-arm system like a Hossack or the girder. The LLF gives you an arc, the length of the link determines how flat that arc might be, and the relative heights of the axle and link pivot determine the ultimate wheel path. With the deformable quadrilateral you get more options (good as well as bad) on where the wheel goes. The distance the axle is from the pivots on the upright can have a big affect on things as a little change in the link geometry can be amplified quite a bit if the axle is farther away. I think LLFs have a lot to offer vs teleforks, but both are steered suspension systems.

    The automotive suspension illustration is a suspended steering system and so is different from a girder which is a steered suspension system.

    If you've got to have a steering head on the frame (one that is a big part of the structure and not just something light to support bars that link to the upright) on a relatively short travel (RR) chassis then the girder might well have some advantages over teleforks if properly designed and built. You could eliminate a lot of the sliding friction, there's more control over wheel path, the upright might be less flexible than telefork legs, and you can adjust dive/squat reactions. How things balance out between steered mass/radius of that mass, unsprung weight, etc is going to depend on the details.

    cheers,
    Michael
    I think you are missing what i am saying Michael.
    The car suspension pic was to illistrate their is nothing amazing about the concept of either the britten or the Hossac
    i just feel the links are at the wrong end. in regards to unstrung weight.
    There is nothing i can think of to stop someone adding parallelogram link to a leading link.
    Its likely even been down before they were all the rage in the 50's and 60"S. Grumph?
    nor is a single link any worse than a tele fork.
    I personally don't see suspended steering as being a great advantage as it has to steer a wacking great gyro anyway. that would be the greatest force to overcome rather than a few kgs.
    A alternative Front suspension to me, needs to be light, perferably lighter than a conventional fork, adjustable geometry and fixable, but more importanley to me it needs to feel not funny.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

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