Sounds like the warblings of some old man. If you're going to be a patronising kunt, why don't you have sex and moove on?Originally Posted by avgas
No8 Wire Extraordinaire
Sounds like the warblings of some old man. If you're going to be a patronising kunt, why don't you have sex and moove on?
Don't you look at my accountant.
He's the only one I've got.
Forum whore
If your into technical 2-stroke stuff, there is plenty on the Team ESE thread.
Come warm yourself by the fire
Possibly correct. But seriously do you remember what buckets used to be about.
I'll give you a hint it has something to do with the name.
Now its the 100/125gp!
Not even streetstock was that 'invested'.
Reactor Online. Sensors Online. Weapons Online. All Systems Nominal.
Forum whore
Television used to be black and white, things change , get used to itPossibly correct. But seriously do you remember what buckets used to be about.
I'll give you a hint it has something to do with the name.
Now its the 100/125gp!
Not even streetstock was that 'invested'.
You could still run an old style bucket in pre 82
Even 500 Gp bikes moved along when change came along
Streetstock is in the process of being killed off by MNZ
My neighbours diary says I have boundary issues
No8 Wire Extraordinaire
I've raced buckets every year since about 88. So yes, a sight more than you do, so don't tell us what you think its about, I don't give a fuck how you think it should be.Possibly correct. But seriously do you remember what buckets used to be about.
I'll give you a hint it has something to do with the name.
Now its the 100/125gp!
Not even streetstock was that 'invested'.
Its about those racing & what they think it is about.
Who is sader? Those dudes out in a field trying to stay awake playing cricket, - or the guys I was forced to listen to over the intercom at the track a couple of weeks ago on sport radio talking about those guys in the field playing cricket.
I was at a working bee & some old twat cranked this up. I was considering ripping my spleen out my throat as the only reasonable course of action to effect an escape.
Don't you look at my accountant.
He's the only one I've got.
Long Haired Yobbo
I typed the following post at work without access to KB, consequently it dosn't take in to consideration replys after Drews post quoted above.
It is not a direct reply to Drew, although it does address a point raised by him.
"Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles." is a pre-requisite that any engine MUST meet to be considered legal.
Being derived from a non competition engine isn't a garantee of eligability.
Say, for example, Cadet kart engines are derived from a chainsaw motor, thus making it "derived from non- competition" (Please ignore the "motorcycles" part for the sake of this example..)
This engine is still disqualified because it is a Go-Kart motor, which is specifically excluded later in the rules under "Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted."
So, to be eligible an engine MUST be derived from a non-competition motorcycle and CAN'T be a Motorcross, Enduro or Kart engine.
Now, a Forza engine isn't explicitly a Motorcross or Enduro engine. (It certainly isn't a Kart engine!)
However, if it actully came to a protest past cases show that MNZ will generally rule based on THEIR interperetation of the rule in question.
This could go any way, depending on who puts forward arguments, how well they do it and possibly even which way the wind is blowing.
The outcome is anyones guess.
http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/news...rticleID=28927
Is an example of an MNZ board descision based on the wording of rules.
Taking a closer look at "Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles." we will see that it really hinges on the interperetation of "derived".
derived:
past participle, past tense of de·rive (Verb)Verb:
1.Obtain something from (a specified source).
2.Base a concept on a logical extension or modification of (another concept).
(from google's dictionary thingy)
So this could be distilled to mean one of two things:
1) The engine type must have been once, in its' inital design, been a non competition motorcycle engine.
2) The specific engine in a bike must have been built as a non-competition engine.
If we take the first interperetation as correct and the intention of the rules the forza engines have a tenuous possibility of being considered legal IF the engine was originally designed as a non-competition unit AND it isn't disqualified on other grounds.
However, the second interperetation is much more likely to be considered correct as it is more logical and clearly definable. It is much more likely to have been the intention of the rule makers at the time and, most importantly, it is consistent with the practical interperetation of the rule.
If the second interpertation of the meaning behind "derived" is taken to be correct the FORZA bikes, both 140 and 150cc are both not eligable as buckets.
The fact people are putting forward an argument also makes it a FACT there is some contention over the legality of even the 140cc model.
This validates earlier concerns that have been expressed by a number of posters.
Concerns that some would-be enthusiast will purchase one of these bikes without being aware that there is some disagreement of the class eligibility of the machine.
The likelyhood of problems arising has somewhat been mitigated by the re-wording of the ad for the 155 (now a Potential bucket racer)
and the open discussion on this forum.
Hopefully any potential purchasers will read it, understand the well intentioned concerns of people who might otherwise be misunderstood and decide whether or not they are willing to take the risk of facing a protest.
A protest may not ever even happen, if it did it could go either way. That is really moot anyway as avoiding getting to that point is surely the best approach.
As for the wording of the rules:
They could be worded much better but we have to work with what we have got.
Most people with anything more than a cusory involvement in bucket racing generally seem to have a good idea of the spirit and intentions of the rules, guidance from them is a real good idea if unsure.
I'm quite keen to put this subject to bed.
So, would we all agree on the following conclusions?
1) The Forza bikes legality for bucket racing is in question
2) The 155 is less likely to be legal than the 140
3) Anyone protesting one of these bikes is likely to have a reasonable case
4) Anyone riding these bikes at a club meet is unlikely to meet any drama, other than associating with bucket racers
5) The ad, as first shown was misleading and has since been changed
6) If someone bought a bike on the basis of "potential bucket racer" without being aware of the nuances behind it they would have every right to hate the seller and perhaps have a basis for legal action.
Heinz Varieties
Ta
At the moment it doesn't, I'm using this for entertainment instead.
Oh yip, they might be derived from competition WSB, (World Stepthough Bikes)?
But I'm just spouting shit, because I haven't raced my bike yet.
I apparently don't get the ability to read or think untill I have.
My how you have a low opinion of those of us not in the elite group that race F4/5.
Can't wait to be part of the clique.
Hardcore Biker
Don't twist my words.
I am not saying that you do not have the ability to interoperate rules, just that you have absolutely zero context with which to base opinions on.
Get your bike racing. Meet the people. See what buckets is actually about.
Then start shit fights to your heart's content.
Ta
I didn't twist anything.
My years of racing don't give me a base of context? I thought you guys said it was the guys racing real bikes that didn't give the proper respect.
You might be surprised how many of the guys down here I do know. And that I fully understand what the racing is about.
This aint a shit fight either, it's a discussion between people with a different position on the subject. I get personal in shit fights.
Hardcore Biker
Alright last reply before I get fed up.
So far in this argument you have done two things:
1. Told us that we are stupid for arguing like this.
2. Continued the argument endlessly.
I think it is fairly obvious you have very little context. You assume you know the effect that allowing this bike into the mix as a legal bike (as opposed to allowing it but on the grounds the rider knew it was not legal) would affect the class.
Oh and are you kidding, about the respect thing. I would totally respect you if this was an argument about Superbike racing, but it isn't. And although I am pretty new to buckets, you are also arguing against guys who have been bucketing for over 20 years. Do you really think that they haven't read the rules a few times by now.
Get to the track and ride that damn bike of yours.
Alright I am done. Been arguing too much on kb recently.
Low personal B.M.E.P.
In Sequence....yes, I remember what buckets used to be about - and dreading having them at combined meetings because of the arguments about poor presentation and condition - thankfully that is past now due to the general upgrading of the bucket fleet.Possibly correct. But seriously do you remember what buckets used to be about.
I'll give you a hint it has something to do with the name.
Now its the 100/125gp!
Not even streetstock was that 'invested'.
100/125 GP - yes, agree, and at least in the SI that's a damm good thing too as they now run on big circuits. i look forward to the class becoming more "professional" in the standards of what's raced and how it's presented.
Streetstock was never intended as a "fiddlers formula" - buckets always has been and always will be thanks to the way the rules are promulgated. IMO at least as many mechanics/engineers/developers have come out of buckets as riders...and it's well known how many top riders have started in buckets.
Forum whore
Totaly Agree ......
Ta
I never said anyone was stupid, (I was saving that for when it turns into a shit fight), I said there's a lot of pissing and moaning about fuck all.
OK, I am not gonna argue the symantics of what context I do or don't have. I would love to know what it is you think will happen to the sport by letting the motardy things run though.
So when it comes to buckets racing, you don't respect my view? Even though the miniature motorcycle racing fraternity, scream blue fuckin murder that they should be taken just as seriously as real racers, because it's essentially the same thing. Bike racing!
How many times do I need to read three paragraphs, do you think, to get the gist of it?
I'll conceed to not having experience of past bikes that have been disallowed, but only in the same sentence as I recall several guys from the scene reminiscing over bikes that shouldn't have been allowed, but were.
I will get to the track and ride my bike. It's mostly through a sense of loyalty to a good friend who helped me out a lot with bits, and the stellar chap who let me buy my motor for what it owed him before he'd used it. Other than that I could take it or leave it. At least untill some more real racers come along with me for the giggle.
Forum whore
Who/what bikes were these you mention?
Pre 1997 when I was involved I cannot think of any that would fit that description.
Not being a wanker (this time anyway), just curious.
Ta
Dunno who or what, just remember a bunch of guys having a laugh, because the guy riding it was poo and he was so far back no one cared. It was some time ago by all accounts.
Bet ya anything you like though, that some of the bikes out theere aren't strictly inside the rules.
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