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Thread: ACC justice for bikers - towards a smarter approach?

  1. #16
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    Just a couple of observations.

    1. We place a lot of faith in education. Some is good, more must be better.
    Some people are geared to learn and see value in it. Many see no need.
    Things in NZ are pretty easy all told. No need to try too hard.
    Deciding to fix all problems with 'education' is actaully exporting the problem.

    2. All credit to those who are lobbying and trying to achieve equitable outcomes.
    When it comes to voting, of all the issues you need to make a decision on, is this THE ONE?

    More strategy required methinks
    "I don't like it, and I'm sorry I ever had anything to do with it." -- Erwin Schrodinger talking about quantum mechanics.

  2. #17
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    We've done all of these arguments to death. Not since the Bikoi have we been heard. We won't me, because the Gummint has set up a body to manage the relationship with bikers -- the Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council. What a great name, and headed by Gareth Morgan too.

    This new Council is really on to it. Its members believe that the answer to all of these problems dogging bikers is the mandatory wearing of fluoro jackets. That just shows how dumb the rest of us are who marched on Parliament. Here we were worried about dodgy statistics and misinterpretation of recorded data from reported accidents, not to mention equity issues and natural justice. If we'd sat down and had a longer think, we would have spotted the reality that the answer was for all of us to wear fluoro vests.

    Give it up, people. We're fucked. We had a great shot at this and got out manoeuvered by some clever politicians and their advisers.
    "Standing on your mother's corpse you told me that you'd wait forever." [Bryan Adams: Summer of 69]

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by schrodingers cat View Post
    Just a couple of observations.

    1. We place a lot of faith in education. Some is good, more must be better.
    Some people are geared to learn and see value in it. Many see no need.
    Things in NZ are pretty easy all told. No need to try too hard.
    Deciding to fix all problems with 'education' is actaully exporting the problem.

    2. All credit to those who are lobbying and trying to achieve equitable outcomes.
    When it comes to voting, of all the issues you need to make a decision on, is this THE ONE?

    More strategy required methinks
    Not to deride any previous posters on the ACC subject, but there's merit in the second to last line above....
    If the words I say offend you, imagine the ones I keep to myself...

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by schrodingers cat View Post
    Just a couple of observations.

    1. We place a lot of faith in education. Some is good, more must be better.
    Some people are geared to learn and see value in it. Many see no need.
    Things in NZ are pretty easy all told. No need to try too hard.
    Deciding to fix all problems with 'education' is actaully exporting the problem.

    2. All credit to those who are lobbying and trying to achieve equitable outcomes.
    When it comes to voting, of all the issues you need to make a decision on, is this THE ONE?

    More strategy required methinks
    why is it exported .......the problem that is

    Stephen

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitcher View Post
    We've done all of these arguments to death. Not since the Bikoi have we been heard. We won't me, because the Gummint has set up a body to manage the relationship with bikers -- the Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council. What a great name, and headed by Gareth Morgan too.

    This new Council is really on to it. Its members believe that the answer to all of these problems dogging bikers is the mandatory wearing of fluoro jackets. That just shows how dumb the rest of us are who marched on Parliament. Here we were worried about dodgy statistics and misinterpretation of recorded data from reported accidents, not to mention equity issues and natural justice. If we'd sat down and had a longer think, we would have spotted the reality that the answer was for all of us to wear fluoro vests.

    Give it up, people. We're fucked. We had a great shot at this and got out manoeuvered by some clever politicians and their advisers.
    no, you were out manoeuvred , because at 0.0000000005 % of the population AND the fact that most nz apostrophe s are apathetic, its a dead cert that the rules are to be changed
    the little surrender monies have bigger balls than most kiwis
    still mustn't grumble eh, its a bit of a bother, but what can one do ....
    stephen

  6. #21
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    Question... Are overseas tourists using rental cars on NZ roads entitled to ACC ?? Given that they pay levies at the pump just like us.

    Like many here, and around the country, I own multiple vehicles, and pay multiple fees, so ealier this year i wrote to Nick Smith and Stephen Joyce on the matter of levies on the licence rather than the vehicle.

    The following (in part) is Nick Smiths reply (Joyce didnt bother)

    The Government is mindful of the need to be fair, while collecting sufficient levy payments to cover the cost of injuries now and for the lifetime of motor vehicle claims, Every approach has its advantages and disadvantages for different levy payers. Even though you can only drive one vehicle at a time, this does not rule out the possibility that others may have access to these vehicles when you are not using them. The motor vehicle levy you pay covers not only you as a driver, but also anyone else who may drive your vehicle, and any passengers and other road users, in the event of an accident. The levy goes into the Motor Vehicle Account which funds all accidents that occur on a public road. If your passenger is injured in a crash, the levy that you paid on that vehicle essentially provides funds to cover their injury-related costs as well as your own.

    The current levy system, where part of the levy is collected through petrol sales and is consequently linked to the distance travelled, also reduces the total levy that would otherwise be payable by a person, such as yourself, who owns multiple vehicles.

    The Accident Compensation Amendment Act 2010 allows ACC to look into using other types of approach in the future, such as charging a levy or providing discounts based on such factors as the age of the vehicle or the injury history of the owner. This Govemment's current ACC work programme also includes exploring wider reform options in the Motor Vehicle Account and we will be looking to further that programme of work this year.

    You have made a choice to own several vehicles, and the licensing requirements are well known. In the same way, if you own more than one property, there is no rebate on the rates and other charges on those you are not currently occupying. Unlike property costs, though, you are able to register your vehicle for part of a year. That way, if the vehicle is not going to be used for an extensive period, you can avoid some levy costs. The minimum period of exemption is three months and the maximum period is 12 months. There is no charge for exemptions and they can be granted by phoning the New Zealand Transport Agency's customer service on 0800 108 809. Exemptions can be extended indefinitely. However, you would need to re-register your exempt vehicle prior to using it again on public roads.

    Thank you again for writing to me. I hope my reply has addressed your concerns.

    Yours sincerely

    Hon Dr Nick Smith
    Minister for ACC
    Read into it what you want, but for me it's nothing more than a steaming pile of dogshit from a patronising prat.

    Couple of glaring points come to mind.

    1. The comment about my other vehicles being available to other users while i'm not... well, helllooo.... presumably these people would have a licence too, and therfore be paying a levy as well, as would other road users.... and

    2. (and this one caught me by suprise) the comment about my levies also paying for any passenger injuries in the event of an accident.... in this day of User Pays maybe we should be charging our passengers to cover their share of the levy....

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian407 View Post
    Question... Are overseas tourists using rental cars on NZ roads entitled to ACC ?? Given that they pay levies at the pump just like us.

    Like many here, and around the country, I own multiple vehicles, and pay multiple fees, so ealier this year i wrote to Nick Smith and Stephen Joyce on the matter of levies on the licence rather than the vehicle.

    The following (in part) is Nick Smiths reply (Joyce didnt bother)



    Read into it what you want, but for me it's nothing more than a steaming pile of dogshit from a patronising prat.

    Couple of glaring points come to mind.

    1. The comment about my other vehicles being available to other users while i'm not... well, helllooo.... presumably these people would have a licence too, and therfore be paying a levy as well, as would other road users.... and

    2. (and this one caught me by suprise) the comment about my levies also paying for any passenger injuries in the event of an accident.... in this day of User Pays maybe we should be charging our passengers to cover their share of the levy....
    actually I'm not sure, me as a new Zealand citizen, can get acc but not a community service card....
    and have received acc
    I think go back to the original wood house principles for your answer

    stephen

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by aum108 View Post
    But who wants to pay more because of idiots who getting pissed, wrap their boy racer machines round trees, and run up 7 figure medical and rehabilitation bills?
    But who wants to pay more because some people ride those two wheeled death traps instead of safer cars?

    I'm all for ditching ACC and having personal insurance myself, that's what I grew up with in the UK. My annual insurance premiums went down as I gained more experience, and age, and if I didn't make a claim obviously. The opposite is true here. I'm older, more experienced and still claim free yet my 'premium' goes up due to other fuckwits on the road.

    Different person + different bike = different risk. Same ACC levy? Shite.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berries View Post
    But who wants to pay more because some people ride those two wheeled death traps instead of safer cars?

    I'm all for ditching ACC and having personal insurance myself, that's what I grew up with in the UK. My annual insurance premiums went down as I gained more experience, and age, and if I didn't make a claim obviously. The opposite is true here. I'm older, more experienced and still claim free yet my 'premium' goes up due to other fuckwits on the road.

    Different person + different bike = different risk. Same ACC levy? Shite.
    no u didnt u had the NHS

    if you screwed up in a car, 12 quid a week from your pay would have seen you right

    insurance and ACC are different

    Stephen
    "Look, Madame, where we live, look how we live ... look at the life we have...The Republic has forgotten us."

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by davereid View Post
    This excellent idea will be ignored.

    (1) Because government wants to be able to "introduce competition' (ie help big business make a profit from) ACC. It cant do that if the levy is collected at the pump. It needs to be able to invoice individuals.

    ACC will first have to start to invoice you directly. you will get a 'green slip" (or more likely electronically done) authority to licence your vehicle.

    The petrol levy we already have will be retained - they will say its to cover those that never insure.
    It is likely that somewhere in this scenario, compulsory third party insurance will be thrown in. This appeals to those who don't know the facts, and is likely to get widespread support from the uninformed.
    I agree with the likelyhood that the levy on petrol will stay, if it is not funding 'ACC' style insurance it will disappear into the 'slush fund' just like the massive 'road tax' collected does in the UK, if it was all spent on road maintanance as it should be?

    What I do not understand is why you claim the 'uninformed' will approve of compulsory 3rd party insurance?
    Having come to NZ from the UK where it is a criminal offence to not have insurance, I was somewhat aghast when I discovered I could drive here without it. 3rd party at least protects the person you collide with from loss if it is your fault. How can that be considered a bad thing? Would you like to be T boned by an unisured driver who is on the dole? Maybe get your insurance excess paid back at $5 a week, and you still lose your no claims bonus. Which of course even if you have been accident free for 10-20 years unlike a car driver, you will not have any 'protection' of previous history to keep your no claim bonus. So next year your insurance will no longer have a 60% discount for no claims.


    Quote Originally Posted by aum108 View Post

    [*]Use current insurance data to set ACC bike premiums which vary according to brand/model, region, owner age/gender etc

    That sadly is a flawed system. The idea is great, but the insurance bracketing for bike completely discounts many highly relevant factors. A car can be insured by its CC rating, but also it's 'type' turbo, non turbo, V6, V8, GT, GTi etc. Motorcycles are simply insured by CC rating. oh its a 1500, thats powerful! Well no, a sprot 500cc has more horsepower and is faster, but you'll pay more for the 1500. No logical areuement will disuade then insurance companies from this 'ill sighted' method. I gather that Europe has classes of vehicles that from my limited reading considers, size, performance, type (saloon, coupe, station wagon) cost of repairs, age, value..and then puts the vehicle into a grouping. So all vehicles in that group incour a similar cost. Then I gather age of driver, experience, insurance history etc are factored into the equation.


    Example - Joe Sixpack cage driver drifts over highway centre line going round a corner and takes out Harry on his Harley because he "didn't see him".

    Under the old system, Harry spends 6 months in the spinal unit learning to walk again, while Joe Sixpack pays a modest fine, cops a few demerits, and in 2 years is scot-free.

    I think everyone would agree that the 'punishment' needs to be commensurate with the offence/inattention
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian d'marge View Post
    no, you were out manoeuvred , because at 0.0000000005 % of the population AND the fact that most nz apostrophe s are apathetic, its a dead cert that the rules are to be changed
    the little surrender monies have bigger balls than most kiwis
    still mustn't grumble eh, its a bit of a bother, but what can one do ....
    stephen
    Same as the European/UK bikers did over leg protectors... get the colective asses out of the whinging corner and make the complete m/cycling voice heard..... if they beat that then, you can beat hi vis vests here... What we need is to give the Govt a real and viable alternative. I suggested this elsewhere a while ago... daylights..... now in the era of hi power LED's that could well be a highly possible alternative. As dylights give diffused, rather than a beam of light.
    If the road to hell is paved with good intentions; and a man is judged by his deeds and his actions, why say it's the thought that counts? -GrayWolf

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian d'marge View Post
    why is it exported .......the problem that is

    Stephen
    Because 'someone else' will need to fix it
    "I don't like it, and I'm sorry I ever had anything to do with it." -- Erwin Schrodinger talking about quantum mechanics.

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