Crafar Farms?

[Clockwork]

Show me a "New Zealand-owned" farm that does not exist with a bloody big mortgage borrowed from overseas. In which case a big chunk of "profits" are still going abroad.

In perpetuity?

[Clockwork]

No it's not, it's earning tax revenue for the country

A working farm will be paying taxes to the NZ Government whoever owns it. But if Foreigners own it their profits will be repatriated.


If an Aussie owned Bank takes a bath and loses money on the mortgagee sale then that's a hit on their bottom line which means their profit is reduced and again, because it's foreign owned that's less money leaving NZ's economy. Seems like a win/win for NZ to me!!

[MSTRS:Me]

Buy the businesses and anything else but not the bloody land. lease it to them but don't give up the royalty.

Could New Zealanders buy land in China? And not something in the middle of the desert somewhere, but prime farm land?

When China was 'in a bit of a pickle', did it sell Hong Kong to the British? Did it, hell...

I see that the company to run the farms, alongside Landcorp, is called "Milk New Zealand".
Is that a company name, or a statement of intent?

Actually, that is scary,

[Zedder]

Skilled NZ managers eh?

Like those in Feltex (liquidated), The Warehouse (buying Clints Crazy Bargains and Silly Solly), Telecom (more Aussie wrecks - AAPT), Brierly Investments, Robert Jones Investments (buying in Wall Street FTW), Apple Fields etcetera etbloodycetra...

Just a simple non-govt example: Telecom was trading at $8.20 in 1999. Now thirteen years later Telecom trades at....$2.60. Yeah! Thats gotta be a winner. Our biggest company is worth 1/4 of what it used to be.

New Zealand is littered with broken companies where managers thought they could take on the Aussies - never mind the rest of the world.

The premise that New Zealand government departments would have continued on after 1988 and risen up to world business standing is risible.

Lets see, Telecom, "Just a simple non-govt example" being worth 1/4 of what is was. So, it sounds like it's done worse under foreign ownership and not being run by a NZ manager to me. As for the others like the Warehouse (Losers, only $76 million profit for 2011) Robert Jones Investments (A sad state, only worth $1 billion) Brierly (Well it's a joke, profits posted in the millions year after year). Etcbloodyetc....

[avgas]

An excellent and pertinent question. I don't know the answer but bear in mind China is a communist country. The land belongs to the government. Foreigners can buy houses and apartments but rural land? Doubt it.

I can answer this.
No.
I am currently stuck with a dilemma where my in-laws have 3 properties in Shanghai, China. But they have to be in an aunties name due to my in-laws no longer being Chinese citizens (they in US). Very frustrating for me as I am hoping to make the big one into a holiday home (its bigger than my NZ house!!).
Foreigners can not buy chinese land. Even companies can't. Why do you think its "San-Liu" not Fonterra running things for fonterra over there?
As far as I know the only foreign owned chinese land over there is the concessions (English, French and American).

If anyone is interested I can dig up the links again.......but essentially the answer is no.

[MisterD]

In perpetuity?

Pretty much. Whether or not the nominal "owners" are NZers or not, at the moment any money to invest and grow the business is coming from overseas. Plenty of those farms with big mortgages have been in the same family for several generations.

I agree that it's not really fair that companies such as the one hoping to be allowed to buy these farms has access to cheaper capital than a local company could get hold of, but the level of xenophobia around this case is bloody embarrassing. I really wonder how all those 5th generation NZ Chinese are feeling...it's like the bad old days of the gold rush.

[Clockwork]

Actually I'm most motivated by being pro NZ but since you bring it up. Yes, I have serious misgivings about NZ's dealing with China.

Apart from the massive imbalance between our economies (can't really be avoided when your economy is as small as ours) They are not a nation that plays by anyones rules but their own and we simply can't afford to fight them if they decide to fuck us over. They certainly won't reciprocate in terms of foreign ownership of their resources or businesses. I doubt the'd give a flying fuck about any World Court or WTO rulings that they disagreed with and just look at the regimes they are prepared to support. I assume you've seen their high regard for other countries intelectual property rights. That sort of thing may have been forgivable when China was viewed as poor nation but that just isn't the case any more.

I seriously doubt that culturally we even see the world with any level of compatibility. Politically they are very callous and hold both human life and the environment well below their economic objectives. We couldn't even appeal for popular support among their population, even assuming we could get it, it's not like their government gives a flying fuck what their population thinks!

IMO the so called "Free Trade Agreement" we signed with China was a serious cock-up and I don't understand why any NZ worker would hope to be able to compete with China and still maintain our standard of living.

[SPman]

IMO the so called "Free Trade Agreement" we signed with China was a serious cock-up and I don't understand why any NZ worker would hope to be able to compete with China and still maintain our standard of living.

Any "Free Trade Agreement" NZ enters into turns out to be a serious cock-up - normally it's all one way - free for them and suck it up NZ! The proposed NZ-USA agreement (so beneficial it's being done in secret) will be a similar disaster!

[Clockwork]

Any "Free Trade Agreement" NZ enters into turns out to be a serious cock-up - normally it's all one way - free for them and suck it up NZ! The proposed NZ-USA agreement (so beneficial it's being done in secret) will be a similar disaster!

I'd have to agree, for many of the same reasons I applied to China.


TBH I think when your economy is as small as ours, all free trade agreements a detrimental to it, the "free" market will always favour the big money. The only justification I can see for them at all is that we've already dropped our pants, so to speak, as an example to others, now we're desperately searching for partners to join us.

I don't know if this is simply down to a slavish determination to prove an economic model that no one else seems to believe in or just plain laziness on the part of our Government because its just too much trouble to hunt down and negotiate trade deals on an other basis. I mean, surely this is just what a small economy as ours needs from its Government. Strategic planning looking for gaps in any market and encouraging the nations businesses to try to fill them.

You wouldn't open a small goods store next to a Warehouse and expect it to be able compete on a "level playing field". Why does our Government not view our economy in the same way?

[Zedder]

I'd have to agree, for many of the same reasons I applied to China.


TBH I think when your economy is as small as ours, all free trade agreements a detrimental to it, the "free" market will always favour the big money. The only justification I can see for them at all is that we've already dropped our pants, so to speak, as an example to others, now we're desperately searching for partners to join us.

I don't know if this is simply down to a slavish determination to prove an economic model that no one else seems to believe in or just plain laziness on the part of our Government because its just too much trouble to hunt down and negotiate trade deals on an other basis. I mean, surely this is just what a small economy as ours needs from its Government. Strategic planning looking for gaps in any market and encouraging the nations businesses to try to fill them.

You wouldn't open a small goods store next to a Warehouse and expect it to be able compete on a "level playing field". Why does our Government not view our economy in the same way?

We're probably just victims of the strategic planning carried out by the USA and China.

[mashman]

We're probably just victims of the strategic planning carried out by the USA and China.

would we not be considered participants as we vote for our democracy?

[oneofsix]

would we not be considered participants as we vote for our democracy?

Depends, when you vote do you feel you have been well and truthfully informed by those standing for election?

[Zedder]

would we not be considered participants as we vote for our democracy?

Only if there's a binding referendum involved. How often do governments pass laws, make policy etc without public support?

The USA are masters at "strategic" persuasion. A good example is the Atlantic Treaty of 1941 where they implemented free trade and economic policy for the post war era even before they entered the conflict.

[mashman]

Depends, when you vote do you feel you have been well and truthfully informed by those standing for election?

They did say that they would be selling assets. I have no doubt that our consternation has been noted and was probably expected.

Only if there's a binding referendum involved. How often do governments pass laws, make policy etc without public support?

The USA are masters at "strategic" persuasion. A good example is the Atlantic Treaty of 1941 where they implemented free trade and economic policy for the post war era even before they entered the conflict.

They know best .

They know best .

[SPman]

Strategic planning looking for gaps in any market and encouraging the nations businesses to try to fill them.

You wouldn't open a small goods store next to a Warehouse and expect it to be able compete on a "level playing field". Why does our Government not view our economy in the same way?

Because most of them are as thick as 5 very thick planks! Key doesn't give a shit - he's leaving one way or another by next election, so he'll push through what's expected of him and retire to a nice cosy sinecure, probably in Hawaii........