World lacks enough food, fuel as population soars

[mashman]

Nah we are usually the "political excuse" for green tech. Think of it as tip of the iceberg stuff. There are NZ companies who are selling their greentech stuff to everyone BUT NZ.
Removing money will simply mean that those who will want control over others will have it. The Brian Tamaki's of this world will still be 'wealthy', even without money.

With or without money there have always been Leaders. Some of these leaders do not have reasonable ideals. With money we can buy a defense against these leaders. Without money we simply will have to stay out of their way.
I would like to say that the world no longer has a mass of blind followers. But fact of the matter is democracy has already shown us that not only do they exist, they are the majority.

If you remove money, it won't be the free-thinkers or passive types who take over. That goes directly against their nature. Since the rich won't exist it only leaves 1 type of people to grab as much control as they can - the possessive, the greedy, the aggressive. They will claim as much resources (people included) as they can. Just remember a king is not king by how much gold he holds, but how much fear he produces.

Note that I say this against every bone in my body.
The bones in my body want money removed, want blood in the streets. The bones in my body are pure anarchist. For no other reason except the fact that this is the only way us humans seem to learn lessons.

We have the equivalent of a king to all intents and purposes, a figurehead who is responsible for us all in one way or another. I have no problem with that as the king seeks advice from "wise" men and therefore isn't the be all and end all of the decision making process. Unfortunately that advice comes with $$$ attached and is $$$ focussed in our current society. Without that $$$ they can't make the same decisions and don't have the same power. Why not? Well the only thing that keeps those who want change off the streets is the need to feed our families. To do that we need to earn money. Without money you can bet your arse that there would be more people protesting at the current antics that govern our way of life... potentially leading to blood in the streets I agree. These days the kings power means nothing without the followers. So where the king makes bad policy, he'll know about it pretty damn quickly. A king requires people to follow and as history has shown where kings aren't doing what the people believe are in their best interest, they are deposed in one way or another... Arab spring springs to mind (they will get a rude awakening when "democracy" appears in their region and nothing changes)

What replaces that is then up to the people. I would HOPE that they would put the free thinkers into "power" or at least the positions of responsibility, passive or not, things would get done as money is no barrier. The possessive, greedy and the aggressive just need the right medication to control their urges oh the irony eh... they may well seek followers with which to push their agenda, but if 99%, snigger, of people just want to get on with their lives then I doubt they will want a "regime" that purposefully splits the people. Not saying that that's what we have, but it certainly isn't the democracy that's being touted.

No money removes their power in this day and age. The only way they can rule by fear is using an armed force and an armed force cannot stand against a population should the population decide to rise... primarily as not all soldiers will back their leaders if they feel what they are doing is wrong. I'm happy to be very wrong on all counts there, but I can't see "power" surviving undetected in a culture without money.

Note that I say this with bloody burning through my veins.
I'm just a guy and as such don't believe that the way you see things (I fully understand that that's all we know currently) is the only way that we can move forwards.

[SPman]

Take away my money and I am only good as a slave.

As opposed to a 9-5 wage slave?

Ghandi did alright

Yes Steven, but, he was a very angry man, and very political. It was how he harnessed his anger.... His power was in seeming to have no power and using it against those who thought they did have power....or something....

This person says what I want to say and more. I believe it can be done "smoothly".

You got Jame's FB link as well.........my comment exactly.

[jonbuoy]

A moneyless system where everyone is entitled to the same resources? So your all willing to give up your top 20% western lifestyle and spread your wealth among the 80% of the rest of population of earth that lives on less than $10/day? Or will this be just a countrywide decision? People will still have to barter, instead of getting paid a monthly wage you´ll get paid in food or produce.

[Number One]

Probably already been mentioned but in case not did anyone catch that show DIVE, about the guys who dumpster dive in America and the ridiculous amount of wasted food that is thrown out? Crikey dick - real eye opening - some shocking stuff!

I wonder if our supermarkets lock their dumpsters?? So many hungry people in this world and so much waste - quite depressing when you think about it and when you see constant reports about how food banks aren't getting enough donated food to meet the needs.

[mashman]

A moneyless system where everyone is entitled to the same resources? So your all willing to give up your top 20% western lifestyle and spread your wealth among the 80% of the rest of population of earth that lives on less than $10/day? Or will this be just a countrywide decision? People will still have to barter, instead of getting paid a monthly wage you´ll get paid in food or produce.

There will be a body that manages resources, we can't get away from that... this may be a "short-term" measure (50 years maybe). I'm willing to do it in NZ for all NZers and if I'm not riding my bike at any given point in time and you're not gonna be a cunt, then yes, you will be able to ride my bike too. As mad as it sounds, I reckon once a moneyless system has been proven to work, the rest of the world will move towards the same thing. I fully realise how insane that sounds but I see no way forwards for humanity where money is the gauge of value. No need for barter, we all do what needs to be done because there are those producing food, treating water, cleaning bins, keeping the sewers clean etc... and we all need to use each others services so it would seem mad to put a value on any one job. You do what you do to help people out, because others are doing what they're doing to help you out (producing food etc...). There will be massive unemployment and more than enough of us to allow us all to have 4 hour days. Educate the upcoming generation well enough (we are not born with a concept of money, it is taught) and teach them the values of doing your bit and I reckon it'll work. Everything "made" in NZ will be free.

[Ocean1]

Probably already been mentioned but in case not did anyone catch that show DIVE, about the guys who dumpster dive in America and the ridiculous amount of wasted food that is thrown out?

No. But I can tell you that at one stage Sainsburys in the UK were sourcing their organic tomatoes from Brazil. Hundreds of tons a day. Any idea how much JetA1 that takes?

[Number One]

No. But I can tell you that at one stage Sainsburys in the UK were sourcing their organic tomatoes from Brazil. Hundreds of tons a day. Any idea how much JetA1 that takes?

Ill bet a shit load of those tomatoes went to waste too! BTW in answer to your question - dunno but I'm sure it's heaps...

[Ocean1]

Ill bet a shit load of those tomatoes went to waste too! BTW in answer to your question - dunno but I'm sure it's heaps...

A 747 Freighter burns around 10 ton per hour. It's payload is about 150 ton.

By the time you add extra burn for takeoff it would take almost as much mass in kerosine as tomatoes to get from South America to Britian.

When you fuck with the market too much you get huge distortions like that.

[mashman]

A 747 Freighter burns around 10 ton per hour. It's payload is about 150 ton.

By the time you add extra burn for takeoff it would take almost as much mass in kerosine as tomatoes to get from South America to Britian.

When you fuck with the market too much you get huge distortions like that.

Holy fuckanoly... they must be some cheap tomatoes.

[blue rider]

the solution was provided in 1973

[Winston001]

Forget about the money fixation guys. It is merely a medium for exchange. Money is not real. It is simply how we estimate value to exchange things. The things themselves are where the value lies. Food, clothing, a house, a motorcycle.

If money in the sense you think of it was removed humans would rapidly invent a new money. Been around since the Sumarians and it ain't going away.

[SPman]

.............. No need for barter, we all do what needs to be done because there are those producing food, treating water, cleaning bins, keeping the sewers clean etc... and we all need to use each others services so it would seem mad to put a value on any one job. You do what you do to help people out, because others are doing what they're doing to help you out (producing food etc...). ........

Sounds like a utopian anarchist system to me. You haven't read any of Ursula Le Guin, have you? She did a couple of books in the early 70's, based on a society with similar values....The Dispossessed? It always seemed to appeal, in many ways - convinced me to become an anarchist.....but...of course...mention anarchy and most people go off on a familiar tangent..........

[mashman]

Sounds like a utopian anarchist system to me. You haven't read any of Ursula Le Guin, have you? She did a couple of books in the early 70's, based on a society with similar values....The Dispossessed? It always seemed to appeal, in many ways - convinced me to become an anarchist.....but...of course...mention anarchy and most people go off on a familiar tangent..........

Not sure what it would be really, sensible I'd hope . I generally don't read as I'm a very slow reader, veeeeeerrrrrryyyyyyy slooooooooow reader according to Mrs Mash. Did any of the books turn out well? I realise that it's not a new idea and I guess I have a slight prejudice in that it has pretty much redefined my attitude in life, from lazy capitalist to confused socialist to, I dunno, something entirely different, a buddharchist maybe, dunno. Yeah, I could get behind buddharchism . Given our flaws utopia is probably a few hundred years away, if at all achievable... but I would really really really really like to know what percentage of the population would consider living in such a society.

[jonbuoy]

There will be a body that manages resources, we can't get away from that... this may be a "short-term" measure (50 years maybe). I'm willing to do it in NZ for all NZers and if I'm not riding my bike at any given point in time and you're not gonna be a cunt, then yes, you will be able to ride my bike too. As mad as it sounds, I reckon once a moneyless system has been proven to work, the rest of the world will move towards the same thing. I fully realise how insane that sounds but I see no way forwards for humanity where money is the gauge of value. No need for barter, we all do what needs to be done because there are those producing food, treating water, cleaning bins, keeping the sewers clean etc... and we all need to use each others services so it would seem mad to put a value on any one job. You do what you do to help people out, because others are doing what they're doing to help you out (producing food etc...). There will be massive unemployment and more than enough of us to allow us all to have 4 hour days. Educate the upcoming generation well enough (we are not born with a concept of money, it is taught) and teach them the values of doing your bit and I reckon it'll work. Everything "made" in NZ will be free.

If we were all reasonable responsible human beings it might work, problem is were not. I might just take your bike and not bother to bring it back again or crash it - not my problem its the peoples bike - the people can fix it. Why should I bother working emptying bins when I don´t have to work and will gain nothing by doing it. Why should I bother studying for 8 years at medicine school - maybe I´ll just surf all day instead.

One country can´t just switch - how is NZ going to buy medicines, equipment, machinery? Unless you want to go back to hunter gatherer/Amish existence - which you can do for yourself without ruining the whole country.

[Brian d marge]

Probably already been mentioned but in case not did anyone catch that show DIVE, about the guys who dumpster dive in America and the ridiculous amount of wasted food that is thrown out? Crikey dick - real eye opening - some shocking stuff!

I wonder if our supermarkets lock their dumpsters?? So many hungry people in this world and so much waste - quite depressing when you think about it and when you see constant reports about how food banks aren't getting enough donated food to meet the needs.

Downloaded it the other day , the torrent is out there

Stephen

and its pretty bad the wastage as , ive pointed out.