World lacks enough food, fuel as population soars

[mashman]

Errrr... actually... no we couldn't and when you come off your meds you'll realise this. I hope they manage the withdrawal carefully.

Anyway if you can't walk into Motomart and buy a Panigale in your world then you can cram it up your arse. The only people who want to get rid of money are the sad, talentlers, losers who don't have any.

I get the feeling that I need to go back on them.

You wouldn't buy anything in my world and as the sun shines out of my arse I'd sun burn my head which is something I really don't enjoy. That must be the case.

High performance = high power consumption = high heat output. That's why even the best laptops can only equal a mid range desktop for performance.

Coz yer gonna need that for typing up documents or recording video and voice or using the calculator function or searching the internet or checking your email or video conferencing etc...

edit: and if we're trying to keep power consumption they'd be a great substitute for office working.

[mashman]

What market fuckeration do you think is happening here?

FTA's?+chars

[avgas]

Ghandi did alright

Stephen

So did Mao and Stalin in the early days. Even Hitler was "voted forward" before he became a bully.

While I would like to say Ghandi didn't have a bad bone in his body..........some of the people next to him may have unfortunately.

[avgas]

No money removes their power in this day and age. The only way they can rule by fear is using an armed force and an armed force cannot stand against a population should the population decide to rise... primarily as not all soldiers will back their leaders if they feel what they are doing is wrong. I'm happy to be very wrong on all counts there, but I can't see "power" surviving undetected in a culture without money.

Quick questions. How often have Soldiers reflected that what they did in the past was wrong? Did it matter that they were paid? Have all Soldiers who did wrong, or didn't believe what their boss told them but did it anyway always been paid?

Said it before and say it again, Power is not always achieved with money. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.
As for it being undetected - nope, it will be obvious and in your face. Giant Pyramids, massive churches and stone statues have been erected for less.

[mashman]

Quick questions. How often have Soldiers reflected that what they did in the past was wrong? Did it matter that they were paid? Have all Soldiers who did wrong, or didn't believe what their boss told them but did it anyway always been paid?

Said it before and say it again, Power is not always achieved with money. And absolute power corrupts absolutely.
As for it being undetected - nope, it will be obvious and in your face. Giant Pyramids, massive churches and stone statues have been erected for less.

Dunno, but interesting questions. I would imagine if they're reflecting on what they've done then they would only be able to "dismiss" it as doing their job. Maybe they don't reflect on it at all, but you'd have to be pretty "soulless" to not feel some form of remorse for those that you've maimed/killed, legally or not. Perhaps they hate the thought that they were paid for it, but I would have thought the going against your better judgement would be a harsher thing to deal with. I realise that soldiers are trained to kill, but where it comes to their own population I would hope that they'd query the order before carrying out the sentence.

I agree, but in this day and age it's the primary driver, and as mentioned earlier, if there wasn't any money and people were pissed off with the way things were going, I reckon we'd see more Arab Spring type oustings in the western world or even out and out murder of those considered to be "abusing" power. Something about that idea tickles me, I dunno why .

[blue rider]

http://www.gbn.com/articles/pdfs/Abr...ary%202004.pdf

a bit of a read, some assumptions and scenarios dating all the way back to 2003, but a good read....

[jonbuoy]

We could take over the world with No 8 and duct tape... At the end of the day it will all depend on the balance sheet. We will still be living in a financial world. If our exports (inc tourism and working population) are less than our imports then there will be money left over for personal imports.



If the whole world went moneyless then I think the last thing we're going to be worrying about is a new TV... and that doesn't mean that TV's won't be made, similar to other useful technology like phones, perhaps we'll all have tablets instead of PC's, or personal computers that we hang around out necks (the tech is there), dunno, but iterating through technology as we do in terms quantity, frequency and lack or reuseability really isn't helping matters in terms of global resource wasteage. I don't see us going back to the 19th century at all, nowhere near it, but we need to start managing things better imho. Bikes will still be made, hell they may even become the predominant mode of transport.

In terms of NZ "blazing the trail", we will need A bank to manage the finances of the country and that bank will have to deal with the rest of the world using money, it'll be the internal economy that won't need it. If the world goes to shit and fuel stop flowing then it won't matter if we have money or not as there will be no fuel and we'll have to revert to the 19th century living. I believe that living without money before that happens would give NZ a head start in regards to not noticing the pain as much as the financial countries. In terms of the sky not falling, it'll give us some form of insulation during times of recession, shit will still get built as local resources won't be subject to inflation, deflation, market ups and downs (exports the exception) etc... similar to natural disaster, if there's no money required for a rebuild as our resources are free, we won;t need to wait for insurance companies to sell assets etc... before they pay out, noone will need insurance either.

As you say 100 cows for an MRI etc... isn't going to work where those who sell MRI's require money in return. We will need to generate money in some form or other... until the rest of the world decides that living without money gives us a decent start point at having a crack at the big issues of the day. I don't see borders closing because there's no money, quite the opposite (that'll scare SMOKEU) and with any luck those who make MRI's will continue to do so and will make them for the world, where NZ will produce shit loads of milk and lamb and Brazil will export high quality cheap tomatoes etc... and not for money or barter, but because they can and because other country's need those things. We will do it because it needs to be done, not because there's a $ in it, which will hopefully allow us to take our foot off the gas a bit without sacrificing quality of life.

Money makes the world go around? Yet if there's no money and people just do what they're currently doing, stuff will still be made and things will get better a damn site quicker than they are for everyone and we may actually have a shot at "peace" and global cooperation for a change. I have a dream I guess .

Its probably a workable system in a Utopia with smart responsible, selfless population - trouble is that would probably exclude 99% of the planets population.

[mashman]

Its probably a workable system in a Utopia with smart responsible, selfless population - trouble is that would probably exclude 99% of the planets population.

Heh, Utopia ain't gonna happen, we're arseholes... people will still beat kids, people will still kill each other, people will still fuck people over etc... but I would imagine to a lesser degree without the dreaded $ fuelling people's greed. I almost agree with you, I honestly do, but there's a niggling part of me that won't/can't accept that people are so inflexible towards change that they'd rather see their countrymen and people across the globe suffer. I have changed my mind and I believe that 99%, ok let's go for a ratio of management v's worker, say 1 in 3 (ass hat figure), so I believe that 66% of the worlds population, when given the option and having someone there to answer their questions, would rather have human advancement and a "stable" society instead of what we have. So I guess the $64 million question is, would you live in that society? Could you? Yes, I realise that this post is on KB

[rainman]

FTA's?+chars

I suppose I actually meant "in that case' rather then "here", as it almost sounds like Ocean1 was suggesting that people demanding/preferring organic food was in some way fucking around with The Market, and it would all just work better if them hippies just ate the goddamn corporatefood.

But FTAs is a good answer too... and of course The Free Market is a myth of gargantuan proportions, right up there with Progress and Liberty (for given values of same).

[Ocean1]

it almost sounds like Ocean1 was suggesting that people demanding/preferring organic food was in some way fucking around with The Market, and it would all just work better if them hippies just ate the goddamn corporatefood.

It almost sounds like you're suggesting them hippies are avoiding goddamn cororatefood by demanding/preferring organic.

"The Market" is you. The goddamn corporates wouldn't survive long if they tried to sell food their customers didn't want. Those tomatoes, (organic and otherwise) are all within a couple of mm in size, a specific colour variation and with tight spec's on a shitload of mostly visual variables including attached foliage. Your choice. The consequences of crop selection and culture for the above is taste, there isn't any. There's zero chance of finding a bug in there, and not much chance of finding any flavour either, organic or otherwise.

Your choice.

[Oblivion]

It almost sounds like you're suggesting them hippies are avoiding goddamn cororatefood by demanding/preferring organic.

"The Market" is you. The goddamn corporates wouldn't survive long if they tried to sell food their customers didn't want. Those tomatoes, (organic and otherwise) are all within a couple of mm in size, a specific colour variation and with tight spec's on a shitload of mostly visual variables including attached foliage. Your choice. The consequences of crop selection and culture for the above is taste, there isn't any. There's zero chance of finding a bug in there, and not much chance of finding any flavour either, organic or otherwise.

Your choice.

Ah... I can imagine the future that we'll live in, in another 100 or so years time. Humanity has long wiped out the bees from existance, due to idiosyncratic idiots poisoning them in an attempt to save them. Leaving us to resort to having to eat mass artificially produced food by the BIG CORPORATIONS.

Food at the moment is a free market. If someone is sick of having to pay x$ for a weeks worth of vegetables, then they have the choice to grow their own. Just wait until humanity ****s up the future. And then you can bitch about having organic food. Oh wait you can't. You cant grow anything, since the main natural pollinating source is extinct.

Ocean1 is right. The market is you. You can easily save yourself a few hundred $ a year by growing your own vegetables. No-one can say to you that their not organic when you grew them in your back yard. When you cant grow them anymore, you're going to have slim pickings choosing what vegetables you can buy my friend.

[Winston001]

You can easily save yourself a few hundred $ a year by growing your own vegetables. No-one can say to you that their not organic when you grew them in your back yard.

I'm with you there although I'm no gardener. Unfortunately modern properties have damned all land to cultivate.

In the Dark Ages a hide was the amount of land required to support a peasant family. About 120 acres but the family would be large and cover three generations.

In the Middle Ages this reduced to an acre.

By the 18th century a quarter acre was enough to feed a family and thus quarter acre sections were standard until the late 1960s.

Today the average suburban section is 1/6 of an acre covered by a 180m2 home, garge, and landscaping. Sod all room for the vege patch.

[Winston001]

I... it almost sounds like Ocean1 was suggesting that people demanding/preferring organic food was in some way fucking around with The Market, and it would all just work better if them hippies just ate the goddamn corporatefood.

Personally having grown up on a farm I'm all for organic (non-pesticide etc) food. For me that is normal.

The problem is the consumer doesn't care. Tomatoes at $3.50kg (imported from OZ) or NZ organic tomatoes at $7.50kg? Spend a few minutes watching shoppers deciding which to buy. Price conquers all.

Organic milk produced in NZ is not profitable. I'm a bit stunned at this but Fonterra have dropped organic milk as unprofitable. NZ Dairy could pick that up - but I don't think they have. Which tells us the number of discriminating consumers is small indeed.

[blue rider]

Personally having grown up on a farm I'm all for organic (non-pesticide etc) food. For me that is normal.

The problem is the consumer doesn't care. Tomatoes at $3.50kg (imported from OZ) or NZ organic tomatoes at $7.50kg? Spend a few minutes watching shoppers deciding which to buy. Price conquers all.

Organic milk produced in NZ is not profitable. I'm a bit stunned at this but Fonterra have dropped organic milk as unprofitable. NZ Dairy could pick that up - but I don't think they have. Which tells us the number of discriminating consumers is small indeed.

i don't think that people don't care, people don't have the money....the average wage in NZ, after rent, utilities and transport (mainly to work) will leave a limited budget.
There are also areas in NZ that are food wastelands, one would not even find a genetically modified tomato.

We use to much land to produce one product, i currently it is milk...., a new area of mono culture.....

and Fonterra decided long ago the milk in NZ was not profitable, there is not enough of us....however when in Germany i can get a litre of NZ finest for about $1.50 incl. 18.5 % GST, transport and mark up , yet the European milk farmer will pour his milk in protest as they only get some $0.42 cents per litre.

[Brian d marge]

I'm with you there although I'm no gardener. Unfortunately modern properties have damned all land to cultivate.

In the Dark Ages a hide was the amount of land required to support a peasant family. About 120 acres but the family would be large and cover three generations.

In the Middle Ages this reduced to an acre.

By the 18th century a quarter acre was enough to feed a family and thus quarter acre sections were standard until the late 1960s.

Today the average suburban section is 1/6 of an acre covered by a 180m2 home, garge, and landscaping. Sod all room for the vege patch.

Maaate , you want to see a small vege patch have a look at my garden 15m^2 if that ,,,, but i got a crop of garlic, potatoes , pumpkin, leeks, spinach ( just eating the last of the pumpkin as we speak ) , I also got ginger and a few runner beans oh and Goya ( Japanese thing )

UP , is the answer pumpkin went on garage roof ( cooled the place in summer as well), i tried lettuce in pots on the fence ,, ...yes well .eerm try again this year

oh and I tried cabbage , but ,, again yes well

At the moment I have a small aquaponics experiment ( thats working REALLY well ) and a 3d view to gardening , I may only have 15m but the sky is the limit ( and so is soil, I am composting as much as I can , but will still have to buy in soil , this year , I think )

it really is good , Im drinking my beer I made , and eating tea from the veges I made ( kind of as its winter here ) screw you america ,,,,,,,, ! Ha who needs your stinkin money!!!

Damn bike is gasoline ,,,bugga ......

Stephen