Ports of Auckland

[Hinny]

Your original link didn’t reference GDP, it was corrected for purchasing parity. Believe it's reasonably widely accepted as international financial lingua franca.

Heading of original link.

List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita

[Hinny]

Agreed but what else can we objectively use?

Here's what Paul Krugman (Nobel leftish economist) says:


"I don’t see an easy way to develop a better measure than GDP – but not because GDP measures everything important. It doesn’t, and it’s crucial to understand that. But if you try to add in other things, the question is what weight you place on them – which is a matter of taste, not science. GDP is good for what it is, a measure of marketable output; the thing is to always keep in mind that health, inequality, peace, and so on are also important, but not measurable in GDP."

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/200...questions/#gdp

'GDP is good for what it is, a measure of marketable output'

Not much good for measuring standard of living.
Not much use having bucket loads of cash if the rest of your society is falling to pieces.

Think:
Too dangerous to walk down the street.
Non-democratic form of government.
Poor health system.
Poor education system.
Lack of personal freedom.

This is America.

Gang bangers.
Not a democracy.
Sick, fat,
dumb fucks.
Most incarcerated society on earth. (I believe we are second)

I think the OECD Standard of Living index is more generally accepted as a measure to take notice of.

[Winston001]

I think the OECD Standard of Living index is more generally accepted as a measure to take notice of.

Ok but if Krugman with his Nobel (and seen as a commie by Republicans) says GDP is the best measure we currently have, his expert opinion carries great weight.

Personally I find "happiness" indexes interesting and valuable. Not because they suggest the best places to live but for what we can learn from "happy" societies. There is a recent study which collates such surveys into an overview - must try and find it.

Anyway I think NZ rated well. Denmark was near the top. There were communities like San Luis Obispo in California which rated highly, not just nations.

[Hinny]

Ok but if Krugman with his Nobel (and seen as a commie by Republicans) says GDP is the best measure we currently have, his expert opinion carries great weight.

C'mon Winstone.
You can't just go around saying stuff like that.
Perhaps you should reread what he did in fact say.
Remember - time to dispel illusion, not create it.
It is obvious that GDP is not a suitable measure and I believe you would find upon reading the formula for the OECD measure that the components of that formula make perfect sense.

Getting back on topic, it is evident that plenty of the people posting on here are creating illusion by misinterpreting available information or simply letting their imagination run wild.

[Bassmatt]

That's what the opposition said.
Are you saying giving tax cuts does not lead to an increase in tax revenue?
Who'd have thought?

Clearly not this Govt.

[avgas]

Hate to state the obvious - but what about the countries not in the OECD?
May skew the results a bit.

[Winston001]

It is obvious that GDP is not a suitable measure and I believe you would find upon reading the formula for the OECD measure that the components of that formula make perfect sense.

Mmm...don't get me wrong, I tend to agree with you.

But...but...measures of well-being, happiness, or standards of living contain subjective elements which don't translate across differing societies. So as Krugman says it becomes a matter of taste not science. Economists are agreed that GDP gives a standardised snap-shot of the strength of an economy. The stronger economies have better food, healthcare, education etc etc.

Ok lets put that aside for a moment: one of my hobby-horses is how fortunate we are in NZ and I've said that on KB for years. Neverthless talkback radio, tabloid television, and the internet are full of people whinging about how bad/unfair life is in this country. Clearly they are unhappy.

The happiest people I have ever met were the Sudanese and they've got nothing. Sod all. Not a sausage. Also ordinary people in India and Turkey impressed for their brightness amidst abject poverty. Frankly Kiwis could learn a lot from these other cultures.

[Hinny]

Which gets back to my story of little Johnny answering the teachers question "What do you want to be when you grow up"
He replied "Happy".
The teacher thought he didn't understand the question.
Johnny thought the teacher didn't understand life.

Bhutan has a focus on GNH - Gross National Happiness, as a measure of success.
This seems far better as a goal of a nation than a focus on increasing GDP.
That ultimately leads to unfulfilled goals and aspirations and it leads to unhappiness and degradation of the planet and of society.
It threatens the well being and happiness of those involved in the POA dispute.
It threatens the very existence of the world.

[Winston001]

Bhutan has a focus on GNH - Gross National Happiness, as a measure of success.
This seems far better as a goal of a nation than a focus on increasing GDP.

With respect, you are assuming increased GDP = increased use of resources. Instead it means growing economic activity and that can come from high value work. For example Microsoft has made a huge contribution to Washington state with only a few buildings and lots of brain power.

FWIW it bothers me that consumption and growth are the objectives of governments around the world. We have reached the point where there aren't a lot of unused raw materials left.

[avgas]

Bhutan has a focus on GNH - Gross National Happiness, as a measure of success.
This seems far better as a goal of a nation than a focus on increasing GDP.
That ultimately leads to unfulfilled goals and aspirations and it leads to unhappiness and degradation of the planet and of society.
It threatens the well being and happiness of those involved in the POA dispute.
It threatens the very existence of the world.

I completely agree. We should focus on happiness.

But raises the question - Were the PoA workers unhappy? Or did the Union tell them they were?
Clearly there are some non-union workers that are more than happy to do the same job.
Nothing is stopping the PoA workers quiting to find another job that could give them said happiness.

[Woodman]

Why is it that it seems every second tv or print news report about the wharfies strike has to mention the big strike in the 50s?, it was over half a century ago ffs, move on!!!, or is it the unions themselves dredging it up like some old rugby player who "nearly" made it and misses the glory days.

Over it.

[RDJ]

Bhutan has a focus on GNH - Gross National Happiness, as a measure of success.
This seems far better as a goal of a nation than a focus on increasing GDP.
That ultimately leads to unfulfilled goals and aspirations and it leads to unhappiness and degradation of the planet and of society.
It threatens the well being and happiness of those involved in the POA dispute.
It threatens the very existence of the world.

Having been to Bhutan (not as a tourist) while the Bhutanese may accept their lot they are not necessarily poster people for happiness... also you did know, right, that Bhutan is a Kingdom and the people had to do what they were told until very recently - they weren't given the right to vote until 2008.

[trustme]

Watched the 60 mins segment on Sunday. Answered a few questions, there are definitely a number of workers who are earning in excess of $91K, not that hard but requires double shifting & a lot of hours. One of the strikers was on $76k doing less hours as he had a young family but still good money, this was never about money.
There is still a chasm between the POA & the union re changing work practices as the port seek more than 27 hrs work for 40 hrs pay. I can understand the workers, but are they really going to have to live by the phone & have their life on permanent hold, no , unfortunately ships while running to a timetable do not always run exactly on time so I guess there will be more broken shifts while you are rostered on. You will still be able to get time off when you want or need it.
The union seemed to believe they had scored a huge victory, yes they had saved the workers jobs, jobs that were only ever going to be lost because of the strike action. Ultimately the whole thing is back at square one. There is no site agreement , the POA has not moved it's bottom line one inch. The workers have lost a months pay & are no further ahead than they were a month ago, I can't call that a victory.
I remember working on site as a contractor at Kinleith during the 91 strike, a bitter & angry time, lots of ugly shit, violence [ I saw it ] , sabotage. The families did it real tough, some of the workers I had sympathy for, some had been on the pigs back for years & the pig was simply saying time to get off. It was not really about reduced pay rate but getting rid of all the special / extra payments that were used to top up the base rate & had got totally out of control .
It had to change, so does the POA work practices.

Addendum. I felt sorry for a leading hand fitter, leading hand rate was bugger all more than fitter rate, it had been topped up with other payments to make it worth while. The new agreement did away with all that. The leading hand said he would return to being a fitter as it was no longer worth his while but was told leading hand was the only job available for him. Unfair imho. The instrument techs were taking a huge hit but they were collecting all sorts of extras accrued from years of shit stirring, I had no sympathy for them.

[Robert Taylor]

I completely agree. We should focus on happiness.

But raises the question - Were the PoA workers unhappy? Or did the Union tell them they were?
Clearly there are some non-union workers that are more than happy to do the same job.
Nothing is stopping the PoA workers quiting to find another job that could give them said happiness.

Or start their own businesses and with a sudden jerk get into the real world........

[trustme]

If you were on their money doing their work why would you ever want to join the real world. But time catches up.

Not long after the employment contracts act came into being , a major international manufacturer shut down it's Sydney operation & I went over there to dismantle equipment & bring it back to their NZ operation to boost production capacity. I recall a conversation with one of their fitters all too well.

" Your a fitter, you can't use that shackle , only a rigger can sling a load, you can't drive the forklift either, riggers can't drive a hoist or use spanners, we're not having any of your employment contract rules over here mate, you can shove that shit up your arse , aint happening on this site. '

To which I replied

' When we finish here, you are out of a job & unemployed , when this machinery gets back to NZ it will create jobs , when you are in the dole queue our people will be picking up a pay packet, I know which I would prefer '

We kept on doing things our way, he kept out of my way after that.