School fee "donations" & activity fees - Where to draw the line?

[Zedder]

[QUOTE=avgas;1130290153]Its not theory and reality. Its black and white (or at least it was when I read it).
There basic eduction is free - but everything above that bar is not.

Ever ordered a 3 course main at a FREE soup kitchen.

There is no mention of:
- Good teachers
- Technology
- Extra-Curricular activities
- Teacher Student Ratios
- Free food
- Trips.......
(at least it didn't when I read it 15 years ago)

If you wish to rely 100% on the govt systems for your life I highly recommend China and Russia.
Because if everyone follows your theory our schools will look like this:


My apologies, I should have written: Free basic, minimum, no extra costs amount of education.

[Usarka]

Send me a bill for fees and I'll pay it.

In the meantime stick the donation up your arse.

[Zedder]

Send me a bill for fees and I'll pay it.

In the meantime stick the donation up your arse.

Exactly, they wouldn't dare use the word fees when the Act states that Education is free.

[avgas]

Send me a bill for fees and I'll pay it.

In the meantime stick the donation up your arse.

Exactly, they wouldn't dare use the word fees when the Act states that Education is free.

I personally would prefer to have it the other way around. Drop the level of eduction so only the kids who have parents that gave a damn, or the very determined kids would try and learn more out of school.

Improved education is not a right, so if people don't want it - don't give it to them. They shouldn't have to pay if they want stupid offspring.

[Zedder]

I personally would prefer to have it the other way around. Drop the level of eduction so only the kids who have parents that gave a damn, or the very determined kids would try and learn more out of school.

Improved education is not a right, so if people don't want it - don't give it to them. They shouldn't have to pay if they want stupid offspring.

So now you're an expert on education. Strange, I didn't see anything on your self professed qualifications list that stated that.

Look how you spelt education in your previous post by the way (eduction).

Also, things may have changed a bit since you "read" the Education Act 15 years ago!

[jasonu]

$260 each for the 2 at primary school and $40 for the girl at kindy. Fuckin pathetic expensive business. I still don't know what the kids get for it really.

What else can you get for $260 that lasts 5 days a week for (more or less) a whole year?

[Winston001]

School donations were called fees until very recently. The word used doesn't really matter, the fact is schools don't have enough money to rise above the basics. The "donation" is for the benefit of your children. I'm appalled when I learn of parents who refuse to pay. They are bludging on the backs of others.

Certainly there are families where the extra money is hard to find. My experience is those families are treated well by the school if they front up and privately discuss their difficulty.

My wife was Chair of the BOT when our children were at primary. The Parent Teacher Association raised funds for trips/camps for children whose parents couldn't pay. What stunned me was when we helped the PTA fund-raise for dictionaries! Cripes I said, surely that's basic Education Department books but no....

[Zedder]

What else can you get for $260 that lasts 5 days a week for (more or less) a whole year?

Yeah, but according to Avgas it's for dumb kids though. Psst: He hasn't got a clue though 'cos NZ Education is ranked extremely highly (Number 1 in the World ratings last year) even though it's free (hush my mouth!) at a very very basic level of course.

[Indiana_Jones]

Most people think like you. Your taxes (and everyone else's) do not fund schools to a level where parents don't need to do a top up by way of donation.
Sad, but true.

It is sad and true. So the government should put more $$ into the schools. Take the money from other useless things like heating for prisoners or funding people to go overseas to study 'hip-hop' etc

-Indy

[James Deuce]

They are bludging on the backs of others.

Are they? Do you have proof? The privileged are always very good at making sweeping generalisations about others lacking in resources. Hence Marie Antoinette's well-meaning blithering about Brioche. There's a tiny amount of idiotic blowhards ranting about school fees. There's a crapload of Mums and Dads going without lunch for a couple of weeks so their kids can go to a school camp. There's sod all parents sending kids to school without lunch.

There are a bunch of people in this country who resolutely insist that those living in poverty deserve it because they don't work hard, or are low-born and deserving of suffering, or mentally incapable of understanding how to escape from the disaster they find themselves in. The vast majority of those people aren't the despicable dope-smoking, drunken idiots a portion of this society would have us believe.

Just because John Key escaped a less privileged upbringing doesn't mean everyone else has the same opportunity. It seems to escape lots of people that there are thousands of people competing for tens of jobs in some sectors of NZ's employment market and simply no jobs in other areas. For those of you saying "move!", it ain't that easy. Stop and think of the logistics and cost and the fact that people aren't going to pay you a relocation allowance for a supermarket job.

[tigertim20]

Education is never free. Chances are if you can't afford the $20/week (or less) to allow your kids to go to school/trips....you most likely can't afford to give them 30 minutes of your time a night for their homework either.

If you want your kids to have a good education, it will cost you in more than one way.
To simply place ALL of that responsibility on the schooling system in NZ is a clear sign of a lazy parent. When toilet training do you simply give em a bucket and shout "Right, there you are, off you go! Don't complain to me if you get it wrong".
Imagine when the poor bastards learn to drive, your probably going to blame the LTSA and the AA.

Education is not a chore, its a privilege. Earn it for your kids.

Got to disagree with the first half of your post mate, there is bugger all correlation between low income, and parents that dont give a fuck - and before you throw words like kahui or the 16 year old rapist, dont forget that people like the hilton girl and a huge number of other famous people who came from massive wealth went down the toilet too.

I dunno if you ave kids, or are fortunate enough to be quite well off, but for joe average, working his 40 hour week or more, its fucking expensive raising kids, especially after theyve paid their mortgage, bills, vehicle expenses various insurance etc etc. Its not easy to find extra money.
There is a correlation between lower socio-economic brackets, and lower levels of acheivement, but thats hardly surprising, when you cant afford the extra cost of playing rugby, being in the school band/choir or whatever kind of extra curricular activity that has been proven to aid development.
Having an inability to pay for extras by no means suggests that you have no time for your kids - it just means you're broke. I can relate to that.

I do agree with one of your sentiments though, that the best thing you can spend on your kid is time - it is a shame more parents dont recognize that, its too easy for some parents to buy shit to keep kids off their backs, and we have a generation of little arseholes growing up from being educated at home by Xbox and gory vids on youtube.

[Geeen]

because they get an oprating grant to pay the salaries already

Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk

Mrs Geeen here ,

The school's aren't double dipping here. The teachers who are 'permanent staff' are paid directly by the ministry of education, however [U]any[U] relieving staff are paid for out of the school operating grant (their own funds), so if a school needs to get a reliever in to go on a trip then they may need some help paying for it. I would however question the need to have a reliever for a trip.... but that's a whole different back story.

I think the main thing to take into consideration is what is being debated, there is a vast difference between what was a 'donation' when I was at school, and what schools are doing now.

Nowerdays schools ask for a donation (either per child or per family depending on the school) which is a donation. It doesn't have to be paid. Some schools hound parents for it, others accept they will only get a 40% return rate and work on other ways to fund things.

The other thing schools are introducing is an "activity fee" which is a compulsory fee. These fees have been introduced so that schools don't have to ask for $3 for trip A, and $4 for activity B when they happen, because they have already been paid for with the fee (little bits often takes up a lot of admin time).

In all honesty as someone who has done ALOT of work in school finances I think it's disgusting that (if the initial post happened -not questioning that it happened but the whole story isn't known) the staff at that school didn't make sure every kid had paid the fee before the camp. There is no excuse not to ring parents and explain the situation.

It is a user pay society. It's free to sit in a classroom and have a teacher teach, however schools can not afford to do trips, provide extra resources etc without parents help.

keep in mind, kids bring home books from school, a lot don't come back. We had to replenish the reader books for our new entrants last year, it cost $5000 (and we are a small school with 1 new entrant class) just for enough titles to get a class of kids through their 1st year of school. Then you add in the costs of computers..... it ain't hard to see how come schools can't do much without donations and fundraising.

[p.dath]

School donations were called fees until very recently. The word used doesn't really matter, the fact is schools don't have enough money to rise above the basics. The "donation" is for the benefit of your children. I'm appalled when I learn of parents who refuse to pay. They are bludging on the backs of others.

Certainly there are families where the extra money is hard to find. My experience is those families are treated well by the school if they front up and privately discuss their difficulty.

My wife was Chair of the BOT when our children were at primary. The Parent Teacher Association raised funds for trips/camps for children whose parents couldn't pay. What stunned me was when we helped the PTA fund-raise for dictionaries! Cripes I said, surely that's basic Education Department books but no....

The total donations (not fees, subject fees, activity fees, etc) between our four children at school was a touch under $1200 this year. Yep, over a grand in donations being asked for. One of those schools wanted $600 on its own.

I refuse to pay. I simply can't afford to pay for the premium - so I am happy to accept the basics.

So I guess while you call me a bludger, my view of the school officials (especially after your comments) asking for such ludicrous amounts of money reduces even further.

Perhaps if I had the pay and benefits of the teachers and officials asking for the money (like your wife, its seems) it might be a different story.

[p.dath]

It is a user pay society. It's free to sit in a classroom and have a teacher teach, however schools can not afford to do trips, provide extra resources etc without parents help.

Scrap the trips then.

If someone wants more than the public system provides they can go to a private school.

[Indiana_Jones]

If people are willing to top up what the government should be covering then the government is just gonna keep paying less.

Fair enough asking for cash for extra/out of school activities, like a trip to the zoo or a camp. Let parents choose.

-Indy