Michigan State helmet law repealed

[Ocean1]

What I was getting at with the duty of care concept was the Governments role in making laws to protect the public.

They do have a duty to protect the public. From the actions of a third party, not from themselves.

The laws relating to harm though are meant to cover a huge range of mentalities and possible actions. However in NZ, unlike any other country, we also have the ACC situation to contend with as I wrote later on.

There's nothing inherently exclusive about the provision of ACC cover to a population accorded comprehensive personal rights. As long as you charge everyone the same ammount, otherwise you'll always get politicians fiddling with the fees to their own advantage.


Arseholes.

[Zedder]

They do have a duty to protect the public. From the actions of a third party, not from themselves.



There's nothing inherently exclusive about the provision of ACC cover to a population accorded comprehensive personal rights. As long as you charge everyone the same ammount, otherwise you'll always get politicians fiddling with the fees to their own advantage.


Arseholes.

Yep, they're arseholes alright and the situation with ACC and targeting bikers is only a start IMHO.

Unfortunately, the Government's duty to protect isn't confined to a third party. Check out Paternalism if you're interested.

[GrayWolf]

no, but a brain with just a couple of synapses still holding hands is worth more than an (was) intelligent dead one.

Cant educate the dead or severely brain damaged.

I'm sure that people here have had dealings with a person with brain injuries.... Frequently I do not agree with TT, but in this instance he is 100% correct. And just a few unaffected synapses are worse than death IMO.
I worked for a nursing agency that specialised in traumatic brain injury rehabilitation.....
Lets see.... you come off your bike at 80k, or get hit by a car at 60k and get somersaulted. Time in Hospital in a coma then re learning to talk, walk, wash, dress, cook,... just the 'basics'.... some can take 3 years to achieve a point where they can be 'returned' into living in society, often with 24 hr care/supervision....
The after effects? personality change, loss of self discipline, no sense of self preservation, unable to comprehend a lot of the changes that have occoured,,,, cant remember the accident.. why cant I drive, ride a bike etc. I dont think I heard of a relationship lasting more than a few years after severe injury. Comment is frequently, they died in the accident (personality) but the corpse is walking around. Frequently unable to understand self danger (frontal lobe damage due to impact and the contra coup effect).
Sometimes left with seizures permanently, easily distracted, cooking chips, phone rings.... go out and leave the cooker going, or go and sit down and talk forgetting what they were doing. Yes we can all do that, but these people will do it every day, 'short term memory damage'. Often not able to follow instructions correctly, severely compromised short term memory. Often not able to accept changes easily, very fixated on a topic or an item and will not change from it. You spend time and resources showing them 'why/what'... then a few months later have to repeat the whole process again.
What is the most tragic IMO is the person can and does frequently remember everything from before... I can drive, I remember how etc... and they can perform the 'skills'... BUT example... I need to emergency brake for a pedestrian... think, decide, look down at the pedals, move foot, apply brakes. 2-3 seconds have elapsed.... but I 'braked'.... I stopped the car!! Or traffic lights, and they want to turn right.... their need to turn 'overrules' the requirements of the road rules.. and yep.. they'll simply carry on and turn.
I am talking about SEVERE brain injury here, many can and do make an almost 100% to 100% complete recovery... others are sadly left with a shadow life.... Personaly if I am in 'that condition' in an accident... I sincerly hope that no one will revive me.

So my point? If an item like a crash helmet or seat belt will prevent or mitigate personal injury? I am all for it, and yes I would love to see the popo be able to 'have a chat' with the numbnuts who ride in shorts, jandals etc
Things that are done to improve others behaviour like a his vis? No, it doesnt aid preventing direct personal injury, I dont agree with legislation.

[Ocean1]

So my point? If an item like a crash helmet or seat belt will prevent or mitigate personal injury? I am all for it

Are you sure that wearing a helmet reduces the chances of serious brain damage?

[tigertim20]

I'm sure that people here have had dealings with a person with brain injuries.... Frequently I do not agree with TT, but in this instance he is 100% correct. And just a few unaffected synapses are worse than death IMO.
I worked for a nursing agency that specialised in traumatic brain injury rehabilitation.....
Lets see.... you come off your bike at 80k, or get hit by a car at 60k and get somersaulted. Time in Hospital in a coma then re learning to talk, walk, wash, dress, cook,... just the 'basics'.... some can take 3 years to achieve a point where they can be 'returned' into living in society, often with 24 hr care/supervision....
The after effects? personality change, loss of self discipline, no sense of self preservation, unable to comprehend a lot of the changes that have occoured,,,, cant remember the accident.. why cant I drive, ride a bike etc. I dont think I heard of a relationship lasting more than a few years after severe injury. Comment is frequently, they died in the accident (personality) but the corpse is walking around. Frequently unable to understand self danger (frontal lobe damage due to impact and the contra coup effect).
Sometimes left with seizures permanently, easily distracted, cooking chips, phone rings.... go out and leave the cooker going, or go and sit down and talk forgetting what they were doing. Yes we can all do that, but these people will do it every day, 'short term memory damage'. Often not able to follow instructions correctly, severely compromised short term memory. Often not able to accept changes easily, very fixated on a topic or an item and will not change from it. You spend time and resources showing them 'why/what'... then a few months later have to repeat the whole process again.
What is the most tragic IMO is the person can and does frequently remember everything from before... I can drive, I remember how etc... and they can perform the 'skills'... BUT example... I need to emergency brake for a pedestrian... think, decide, look down at the pedals, move foot, apply brakes. 2-3 seconds have elapsed.... but I 'braked'.... I stopped the car!! Or traffic lights, and they want to turn right.... their need to turn 'overrules' the requirements of the road rules.. and yep.. they'll simply carry on and turn.
I am talking about SEVERE brain injury here, many can and do make an almost 100% to 100% complete recovery... others are sadly left with a shadow life.... Personaly if I am in 'that condition' in an accident... I sincerly hope that no one will revive me.

So my point? If an item like a crash helmet or seat belt will prevent or mitigate personal injury? I am all for it, and yes I would love to see the popo be able to 'have a chat' with the numbnuts who ride in shorts, jandals etc
Things that are done to improve others behaviour like a his vis? No, it doesnt aid preventing direct personal injury, I dont agree with legislation.

Ive done a bit of work in mental health - one bloke had suffered a head injury in a car accident.
He wasnt allowed to do much, and couldnt understand why he wasnt allowed to drive etc.
He was assessed as being incapable of even driving a mobility scooter safely.

his family bought him one anyway against our advice.

they sold it after he had four accidents, two involving running people over cos he was looking in a shop window etc, another because he had a petit mal seizure while cruising along the footpath, over the kerb, onto the road, nearly killed, save for the reactions of two attentive drivers.

off topic slightly, but that can be a real reality

[GrayWolf]

Are you sure that wearing a helmet reduces the chances of serious brain damage?

well you could go and see for yourself?
..... your skull is at best 2mm thick; direct impact on concrete at 50kph, should do nicely....

[davereid]

Depending on whos data you read hoping on a motorcycle makes you 18-30 times more likely to suffer a serious injury or die than someone in a car.

A helmet improves your odds by 30-50% according to some data.

So if you accept that its acceptable for governments to ban helmet-less riding for a doubling of the survival rate, how will you argue against banning riding full stop for a 30 x improvement ?

We fail the Darwin test every time we hop on a motorcycle by a factor of 18 to 30. The helmet is merely in the lash of the gears... insignificant compared to the carnage the motorcycle is responsible for.

[GrayWolf]

So if you accept that its acceptable for governments to ban helmet-less riding for a doubling of the survival rate, how will you argue against banning riding full stop for a 30 x improvement ?

We fail the Darwin test every time we hop on a motorcycle by a factor of 18 to 30. The helmet is merely in the lash of the gears... insignificant compared to the carnage the motorcycle is responsible for.

For sale 1200 Sportster, TGB 50cc moped. One 'Darwin deficient' owner wishing to improve odds by X30.....

[Ocean1]

well you could go and see for yourself?
..... your skull is at best 2mm thick; direct impact on concrete at 50kph, should do nicely....

Oh I think it's a wee bit thicker than that. Direct impact on concrete, however will see you comfortably dead no matter what you've got wrapped around your skull.

So, see, if you bracket the impact velocities that are likely to leave you OK, FITH, and DEAD without a helmet and do the same for impact velocities with a helmet you'll get two ranges of speed that we'd like to avoid. Godit?

So if the dreaded vegie velocity range is 10 - 20k without a helmet and 20 - 30k with then your odds of vegihood are about even.

Except you might be more likely to ride at speeds that make vegihood more likely with a helmet.