Sue Bradfords Anti-Spanking Bill

[Wolf]

If CYFS ever showed up on my doorstep and said something like that - I'd just see red. I can see I'd want a friend or someone there to calm me down - which in turn would "add credibility" to the CYFS case.

I was livid and scared - not a good combination, it took me a lot of effort to remain calm dealing with them so they would not see me wig out and "prove" their point.

They have backed off now - until that bitch druggie decides to get spiteful again and recruit more people willing to lie - so that's a plus. So a couple of them are left wondering how we managed to magically make all the evidence of abuse go away, so what? So long as they are not currently on my doorstep they can twist up their little insides and littler brains with spite and venom and die alone without friends years from now because they failed to heed Nietsche. (And green bling for the first person to tell me the relevant quote)

[ManDownUnder]

I was livid and scared - not a good combination, it took me a lot of effort to remain calm dealing with them so they would not see me wig out and "prove" their point.

They have backed off now - until that bitch druggie decides to get spiteful again and recruit more people willing to lie - so that's a plus. So a couple of them are left wondering how we managed to magically make all the evidence of abuse go away, so what? So long as they are not currently on my doorstep they can twist up their little insides and littler brains with spite and venom and die alone without friends years from now because they failed to heed Nietsche. (And green bling for the first person to tell me the relevant quote)

I can't quote Nietsche, but the irony doesn't excape me either.

The very instincts I have to protect my children would kick in if CYFS (or similar threat) showed up on my doorstep.

The natural behaviour (like wanted to punch them) would "demonstrate" in their favour.

WTF?

If you're concerned, can't you approach CYFS yourself, or the Police or both and tell them what you think is going on?

If worst came to worst - would it be possible to talk to CYFS and "arrange an agreed safe house" the kids could go to - like an Uncle or similar. Somewhere the kids are comfortable and familiar, and you'd agree to stay away for 12 hours...

It shits me I even need to make suggestions like that - it's complete bullshit but in my mind it'd be a less unacceptable situation.

The nasties making the calls to CYFS need to be put on notice too. "Do it agin and I'll prove you wrong - following by throwing the book at you!"

Have CYFS do it - they're the only ones knowing their identity, and they need to know you're serious (although I suspect they know that already)
MDU

[mstriumph]

Have been trying to keep abreast of this one from afar and several points spring to mind
- firstly, imperfect as it is, the judicial process is meant to be independant of the state and it is exceedingly dangerous when politicians seek to intefere with this,
secondly [and as has been pointed out here] 'reasonable' can be a very expensive thing to determine; IMHO to put parents in a position where they may have to do so for smacking their child is inappropriate
... and thirdly, ANYONE who thinks it's always possible to reason with a 2 year old is in serious need of a reality check

Is not such defintion, though, the task of the jury ? To define what a "reasonable" person would think "reasonable", under all the circumstances ? Not, admittedly, that I have much faith in the good sense of juries. But I have even less faith in the good sense of politicians.

It might also be considered excessive that a well meaning parent be subjected to all the stress and very considerable expense of a jury trial, to determine that their use of "force" was in fact reasonable.

Incidentally, I would like those who argue that "time outs" and such like are an alternative, to explain what they will do when the child decides to ignore the "time out". You can't forcibly make the child stay in room etc, since that involves force. Nor can you lock the door, since that also would fall foul of the law. No TV? What are you going to do when the child turns it on anyway. They can persist in turning it on longer than you can in turning it off. And you can't touch them at all.

The main justification put forward for the bill is that certain politicians did not agree with the conclusions of the juries in a couple of cases. Well, I don't always agree with juries either. And I'm sure that there have been some you've disagreed with . But that's the nature of trial by jury. Its the central tenet of our legal system.

Juries determine facts, not law. Changing the LAW because a politician disagrees with a jury's determination of FACT, is abuse of the constitutional process, IMHO.

[WRT]

. . . they failed to heed Nietsche. (And green bling for the first person to tell me the relevant quote)

Several relevant?

Love is a state in which a man sees things most decidedly as they are not.

Insanity in individuals is something rare -- but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule.

And for dealing with CYFS?

The best weapon against an enemy is another enemy.

[Lou Girardin]

One small point though, Big Dave mentioned it and a lot of weaselie pollies said the same phrase "a tap on the hand". We never got "taps" on the hand. It was a bloody good slap on the arse. It's has to hurt or there's no deterrent.

[James Deuce]

One small point though, Big Dave mentioned it and a lot of weaselie pollies said the same phrase "a tap on the hand". We never got "taps" on the hand. It was a bloody good slap on the arse. It's has to hurt or there's no deterrent.

It only has to happen once for the threat to last for a long time too.

Another alternative mentioned is Time Out. Don't make me laugh. If you're naughty I'll send you to your room - where all your toys are - bummer.

[ManDownUnder]

... and thirdly, ANYONE who thinks it's always possible to reason with a 2 year old is in serious need of a reality check

I hear ya - but again - we put it in 2yo speak. "This is naughty, and if you do it you will get a smack"

Comprehension of what a car would do if it hit her would not be possible, and any demonstrations or pictures innappropriate

MDU

[enigma51]

One of the things John had on his show was how to deal with your kids and my favourite one was Time out. Thats just great if you are 5 years old you have a 5 min time out. Thats gone work aint it!

I use to get a time out right after I got a good smack or 4.

[ManDownUnder]

It only has to happen once for the threat to last for a long time too.

Another alternative mentioned is Time Out. Don't make me laugh. If you're naughty I'll send you to your room - where all your toys are - bummer.

Yeah - send them to the bathroom. It works better for all the right reasons.

MDU

[enigma51]

Oops did not see jim2 had the same comment

[Big Dave]

One small point though, Big Dave mentioned it and a lot of weaselie pollies said the same phrase "a tap on the hand". We never got "taps" on the hand. It was a bloody good slap on the arse. It's has to hurt or there's no deterrent.

When they were two it was only ever a tap on the hand - and i probably did it twice to each of them. I did smack their bum once or twice when they were slightly older too - but as soon as reasoning or non physical was effective it was abandoned.

Until you get to 17 when it's pick him up, pin him against the wall, put your finger in his face and say 'you will not talk to your mother that way again'.

[James Deuce]

Until you get to 17 when it's pick him up, pin him against the wall, put your finger in his face and say 'you will not talk to your mother that way again'.

***Gets weights out and starts high-intensity, low rep mass building programme***

[Wolf]

Our boys get asked nicely with "please", told firmly with no "please" then put in their room - all their toys are in the lounge because I want them to stay in bed at night, not get out and play with their toys in the "dark" (like you get that in the city, best we can manage with curtains drawn and the outside light off is "dim")

After timeout they are told "do what you are told or you'll go to time out again ("No," says Master 3, "No," says Master 2) They can't reach the door handle and we ignore them - going to time out is kept "low-key" - no talking to them, no saying "Right, for that you go to timeout" no eye contact - nothing that would help time out count as "attention". They are then ignored for one minute per year of age and when let out made to sit down and told why they went to time out and assured it will happen again. they are told they are loved and given a hug and kiss when they return to the fold - after they hug and kiss whomever it is they hit if that is the reason for time out.

We hadn't always been consistent in this in the past - repeating our instructions ad nauseum sometimes, telling them to get to their room - things that eroded our credibility - but on the whole they are learning that if they transgress they get ignored for two or three minutes while everyone else has fun - they don't enjoy it. They are generally pretty well behaved and developing good boundaries.

They also get lots of thanks when they are playing nicely or showing kindness to one another or other people - "catch your kids behaving". They are learning by degrees that being good gets more attention than being bad - wasn't always consistent as I said, so they are having to unlearn that hitting each other gets full-blown attention complete with stern admonitions and "get into time out and stay there". They're learning that it is not the path to attention, rather the path to missing out on the fun.

Likewise tantrums - the offender is ignored and the one being good is paid a lot of attention until the tantrum thrower wises up and joins in nicely.

They also lose any toy used as a weapon against anyone and lose TV and DVD privileges (our TV has a standby button on the remote that cannot be overridden using the power switch on the TV - turn it off with the remote and they can try to turn the TV back on all they bloody like.)

[vifferman]

***Gets weights out and starts high-intensity, low rep mass building programme***

Just remember, Jim - you've got cunning and experience on your side...

I'm still (just) bigger than my 3 boys, but torpitude has given me a greater mass that they'll be a fair way off achieving for themselves.

[Lou Girardin]

Is it allowed to give extended time out?
Say, 15 years.