Sue Bradfords Anti-Spanking Bill

[bondagebunny]

is im still ok to smack the parents for dollars I dont give a rats arse what laws they change

[scumdog]

Sounds like common sense getting in the way of a Political Career to me... you better watch your back....

Not if you look at 'madboys' post earlier on this thread.

[scumdog]

New Zealand is a signatory to the United Nations Convention.

THIS is is the biggest screw-up NZ Govt. has made, - having anything to do with the UN.
Why the hell do we need to have ANYTHING to do with the lefty, PC, anti-gun, anti-rights waste of time/money/resources dictorial cretinist regime that the UN is??????

[Beemer]

Yeah this is total bollox. I used to get a decent whack on the arse (along with my other 2 brothers), mostly with the "jam spoon" (a wooden spatula that was very solid and lasted 15 or so years of punishments) when we were out of line. I used to hate that thing, but I knew that when I got it i deserved it. It was usually followed by between 10 minutes and a couple of hours in my bedroom, depending on the offence. Now being slightly older I can see that it was a very good way of disiciplining me and my brothers and we are better off having experienced that.

Ha, we used to get the jam spoon too! I have it in my possession now, so no more smacks for me! I also used to get the back of the wooden hairbrush if I wriggled while my hair was being done...

I have a niece and a nephew, both children of the same sister. My niece was treated quite strictly and was always well behaved and polite, whereas my nephew was allowed to get away with murder. Result today, some 30 years later? My niece is happily married with two kids, both parents have good jobs and the kids are pretty well behaved too. The nephew? Hardly held down a job in his life, into petty crime, drugs, you name it, he's done it. To me this proves that discipline doesn't turn people into thugs, it actually gives them some boundaries for their behaviour and ensures they turn into decent human beings!

There is a guy in Levin who is right behind Sue Bradford and her ilk. He was sending a letter to a young girl several years ago and refused to accept a stamp with a photo of a winery on it - because it could corrupt her! (I reckon if being written to by a guy in his 40s hadn't done it, then a bloody stamp wasn't likely to!) THAT is the kind of person who supports this type of law change.

I don't have kids myself, but I'm pretty sure I could tell the difference between a corrective smack and a thrashing.

[Hitcher]

Yeah this is total bollox. I used to get a decent whack on the arse (along with my other 2 brothers), mostly with the "jam spoon" (a wooden spatula that was very solid and lasted 15 or so years of punishments) when we were out of line.

Mr Jamspoon used to get occasionally invited to dinner at our place when we were kids. He would sit on the table immediately to my mother's right. His stained head certainly gave the impression that he had spilt the blood of the innocents. But he never touched a child in our home in anger. His appearance was sufficient to focus the mind on the task in hand -- the reverent and orderly consumption of comestibles and the diligent and expeditious cleaning up afterwards of associated paraphernalia. He was a competent supervisor.

[vifferman]

I dunno what to think. It's too complicated for me, and I think that in hindsight it would have been better if I wasn't a parent. Probably makes sense - anyone who's a sorry excuse for a human will be a sorry excuse for a parent, and anyone who's had poor parenting is fighting a losing battle to be a good parent themselves.
I don't remember any of the corporal punishment meted out to me, apart from that which was blatantly unjust. Maybe it all was.

[Lou Girardin]

THIS is is the biggest screw-up NZ Govt. has made, - having anything to do with the UN.
Why the hell do we need to have ANYTHING to do with the lefty, PC, anti-gun, anti-rights waste of time/money/resources dictorial cretinist regime that the UN is??????

Perhaps because it presents a forum where diplomacy can avoid major wars. The last one was 60 years ago, probably the longest ever period between international conflicts.

[Wolf]

..... erm ...."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." ???

Correct quote I was looking for, green bling duly awarded.

I think many of the "guardians of public morality" have become greater monsters than the monsters they hunt. A couple of the CYFS workers we dealt with have clearly lost their humanity and are rapacious beasts setting upon everything about them in a blood-lust frenzy of "moral indignation". To be accused is to be guilty, no mercy will be shown, burn the heretic.

Fortunately we also dealt with another couple who were still human.

[Wolf]

those parents who choose NOT to discilpine their kids are the ones who are abusive.

I agree wholeheartedly. The airy-fairy "let the kids develop how they will and do what they like" crap raises children with no concepts of right and wrong.

Discipline is required, boundaries are needed. We have a no smack policy so our children are disciplined in other ways. They are getting the idea - our three year old said to me when I came home the other night "Toys gone. Esin, Targin fight."

We do not believe in allowing them full scope when they're young and trying to reign them in as they get older. Instead, we give them two choices - what they have for breakfast, which snacks we buy at the supermarket etc.

As they get older, the number of choices will gradually increase. This will give them the message they are trusted more while still establishing boundaries - "you can't have everything you want".

The plan is that by the time they are teens, they will feel respected, have a range of choices and the ability to make considered choices and feel freer than before, not "unfairly reined in".

They will also come to learn that we set boundaries on them because we love them. They will be taught that there are consequences - logical and natural - of their actions and choices and that if they make an unwise decision, they might not like the consequences. They will learn the rules we set are for their protection and the protection of others because we do not want them killed or harmed or imprisoned and we don't want them to have to live with killing or harming someone else.

It is the duty of a responsible parent to provide boundaries. We believe we can acheive that without smacking and our kids, while not perfect, are certainly better than other kids we know of their age.

For the record, both my brother and I were smacked as children - often that smacking went too far and became abuse but we certainly grew up knowing that transgression of any nature would result in (at least) a smack. My brother tries to solve problems with violence and being regularly smacked has not stopped him from using drugs and getting in trouble with the police.

I have no desire for my children to learn that the easiest way to deal with something is to thump someone. As their disciplining progresses we will move to "stand, talk and deal" tactics where they will learn to acknowledge what they did out was out of line.

It is rather hard to tell a child that hitting his brother is "wrong" when the punishment meted out is a smack. Double standards, there - and kids pick up on that. **THUMP** "Don't hit people!"

Our boys do not dash out into traffic. When we get to the road they tell us to wait and stop until it is safe to go. We acheived this by dint of holding their hands when appraoching roads, stopping, tellling them to wait and watch out for the cars and praising them for doing so. They are 2 and 3 years of age and have been road savvy since not long after they learned to walk.

Last night at the supermarket, both boys were tired and scratchy. The eldest walloped his brother so wound up not being allowed to ride in the kiddie-car thing for a while. He threw a major tantrum and got to be ignored on the floor while I played with his brother until he calmed down. In the end he capitulated because he wanted to ride in the kiddie-car.

[ManDownUnder]

I agree wholeheartedly. The airy-fairy "let the kids develop how they will and do what they like" crap raises children with no concepts of right and wrong.

Discipline is required, boundaries are needed. We have a no smack policy so our children are disciplined in other ways. They are getting the idea - our three year old said to me when I came home the other night "Toys gone. Esin, Targin fight."

We do not believe in allowing them full scope when they're young and trying to reign them in as they get older. Instead, we give them two choices - what they have for breakfast, which snacks we buy at the supermarket etc.

As they get older, the number of choices will gradually increase. This will give them the message they are trusted more while still establishing boundaries - "you can't have everything you want".

The plan is that by the time they are teens, they will feel respected, have a range of choices and the ability to make considered choices and feel freer than before, not "unfairly reined in".

They will also come to learn that we set boundaries on them because we love them. They will be taught that there are consequences - logical and natural - of their actions and choices and that if they make an unwise decision, they might not like the consequences. They will learn the rules we set are for their protection and the protection of others because we do not want them killed or harmed or imprisoned and we don't want them to have to live with killing or harming someone else.

It is the duty of a responsible parent to provide boundaries. We believe we can acheive that without smacking and our kids, while not perfect, are certainly better than other kids we know of their age.

For the record, both my brother and I were smacked as children - often that smacking went too far and became abuse but we certainly grew up knowing that transgression of any nature would result in (at least) a smack. My brother tries to solve problems with violence and being regularly smacked has not stopped him from using drugs and getting in trouble with the police.

I have no desire for my children to learn that the easiest way to deal with something is to thump someone. As their disciplining progresses we will move to "stand, talk and deal" tactics where they will learn to acknowledge what they did out was out of line.

It is rather hard to tell a child that hitting his brother is "wrong" when the punishment meted out is a smack. Double standards, there - and kids pick up on that. **THUMP** "Don't hit people!"

Our boys do not dash out into traffic. When we get to the road they tell us to wait and stop until it is safe to go. We acheived this by dint of holding their hands when appraoching roads, stopping, tellling them to wait and watch out for the cars and praising them for doing so. They are 2 and 3 years of age and have been road savvy since not long after they learned to walk.

Last night at the supermarket, both boys were tired and scratchy. The eldest walloped his brother so wound up not being allowed to ride in the kiddie-car thing for a while. He threw a major tantrum and got to be ignored on the floor while I played with his brother until he calmed down. In the end he capitulated because he wanted to ride in the kiddie-car.

I like your style. Tell you what - I'll put my money where my mouth is.

As of right now, I'm not going to smack my kids for 2 months... and I'll let you know how I go. If it works well I'll roll that out to be permanent.

MDU

[crashe]

I like your style. Tell you what - I'll put my money where my mouth is.

As of right now, I'm not going to smack my kids for 2 months... and I'll let you know how I go. If it works well I'll roll that out to be permanent.

MDU

MDU - Watch "Little Angels" on TV1 on Wednesday nights.....
you may learn a thing or two.... lol.

[ManDownUnder]

MDU - Watch "Little Angels" on TV1 on Wednesday nights.....
you may learn a thing or two.... lol.

I've been watching - and I learned there are a lot parents out there with no concepts of boundaries. We have no such problems in our house, and we have 2 delightful kids who are as carefree as I'd hope to get them.

If the absence of smacking makes them more carefree - I'm all for it. If it comes at the price of a loss of boundaries... I'll be looking for some answers

[Wolf]

Perhaps because it presents a forum where diplomacy can avoid major wars. The last one was 60 years ago, probably the longest ever period between international conflicts.

Except for when the Americans attacked Grenada, Vietnam, Korea, the Gulf and Iraq, the poms fought the Argentinians in the Falklands - both good diplomatic members of said UN council and able to veto any attempts at being charged with war crimes - which is what should happen to GW Bush and a large number of the US Military. Will never happen because the US would veto any move by the UN to bring such charges to bear - the US can do that despite the fact GWB blatantly disregarded UN rulings re Iraq and unilaterally created a "Coallition of the Willing to Murder" including the UK and Australia.

I have no respect for the UN as they are nothing but a pack of ineffectual wankers. Suspend the right to veto, kick the US out of the UN for flagrant breach of UN rules and hang GW Bush by the neck in public as a war criminal on a par with Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein - then I'll have some respect for them.

LiasTZ will be puzzled by the above as I am generally against Capital Punishment, but I am all for it for war criminals - which is what Bush Jr is - even though he will never be convicted of it because the UN is useless.

[Wolf]

I've been watching - and I learned there are a lot parents out there with no concepts of boundaries. We have no such problems in our house, and we have 2 delightful kids who are as carefree as I'd hope to get them.

If the absence of smacking makes them more carefree - I'm all for it. If it comes at the price of a loss of boundaries... I'll be looking for some answers

The Little Angels program is where we got the "once polite, once firm, then off to time out/loss of toys/privileges/whatever" and the idea of not making eye contact when putting them in time out. Close the door on them - time out must be in a place that is boring for the child - hold the door shut if need be, do not yell at them or talk to them if they kick the door. They only get spoken to when the come out. It also showed how to do time-out in shops - making them hold onto the trolley and walk along beside it - trap their hand with your own if need be and do not look at or talk to them until the timeout period is up. Then let them walk quietly along side with the knowledge they will have more time out if they piss about again. They also showed the play with the other kid while one is throwing a tantrum - works quite well... when they stop screaming and come up, welcome them and play with them both together.

At the parenting course we were told of "HALT" - when kids act up they are Hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired. Attention seeking is a common cause - and both my brother and I would act up to get a hiding because at least it was attention (another good argument against smacking, you are rewarding their bad behaviour by paying (admittedly painful) attention). Attention seeking is best cured by giving them attention when they're playing nicely and removing them from the area (time out) when they're naughty.

We were also told "don't get hooked in" - that has made a major difference in our house.

Before: Drink. No, you've had enough. Drink. No. Drink. No. Drink. No. Drink. No. Drink. No. Drink. No. Drink. No. Drink. No...

After: Drink. No, you've had enough. Drink. No. Drink. Drink. Drink.

Sometimes the best "last word" is silence...

[Keystone19]

The Little Angels program is where we got the "once polite, once firm, then off to time out/loss of toys/privileges/whatever" and the idea of not making eye contact when putting them in time out. Close the door on them - time out must be in a place that is boring for the child - hold the door shut if need be, do not yell at them or talk to them if they kick the door. They only get spoken to when the come out. It also showed how to do time-out in shops - making them hold onto the trolley and walk along beside it - trap their hand with your own if need be and do not look at or talk to them until the timeout period is up. Then let them walk quietly along side with the knowledge they will have more time out if they piss about again. They also showed the play with the other kid while one is throwing a tantrum - works quite well... when they stop screaming and come up, welcome them and play with them both together.

At the parenting course we were told of "HALT" - when kids act up they are Hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired. Attention seeking is a common cause - and both my brother and I would act up to get a hiding because at least it was attention (another good argument against smacking, you are rewarding their bad behaviour by paying (admittedly painful) attention). Attention seeking is best cured by giving them attention when they're playing nicely and removing them from the area (time out) when they're naughty.

We were also told "don't get hooked in" - that has made a major difference in our house.

Before: Drink. No, you've had enough. Drink. No. Drink. No. Drink. No. Drink. No. Drink. No. Drink. No. Drink. No. Drink. No...

After: Drink. No, you've had enough. Drink. No. Drink. Drink. Drink.

Sometimes the best "last word" is silence...

This is exactly how it should be done. It is difficult at first and requires a whole heap of effort on the part of the parent but it works. Consistency is the answer. I have worked with many families as a public health nurse and taught these strategies. The ones for whom it did not work were the ones who were not consistent. It may take three weeks for it to be effective or it may take three days. It's achieving the consistency that will make it successful.