Is it Bucket legal or not?

**TZ350** · 21st May 2012, 16:53

Originally Posted by jasonu

But you can make any engine part from scratch, base it on anything you want and it would be legal as it didn't come from a competition motor.

I will have to have another look at the wording of the rules. "didn't come from a competition motor" is a bit different to having to be "based on a non competition part" or made/modified/developed from an existing "non competition part"

Originally Posted by husaberg

Your kidding aren't ya. How is making a barrel meant to be illegal?

Originally Posted by Henk

I was under the impression that home made parts were legal. Not sure why but it is about as "in the spirit of buckets" as it is possible to get.

Yes, that's what I thought too .....

**koba** · 22nd May 2012, 21:12

Originally Posted by husaberg

But it is sure open to interpretation. In fact as i replied to you at the time there were a number of different ways his reply could be interpreted. Why he chose not to use any commas i have no idea. Yes punctuation tips from me WTF.

I have been in a similar situation with rules in another class.
The person who wrote the (flawed) rules was standing right next to me as I explained my interpretation to another observer.
He (quite rightly) corrected me but I didn't really like the condescending tone; his words dripped hubris.
I replied something along the lines of: "Well, you better tell that guy, he explained the rules to me and he has invested a considerable amount in maximising his position under the rules as he understands them, I know he is a smart bugger so I trust he would have interpreted them as well as anyone might expect".

OK, my reply wasn't quite that well formulated on the spot at the time but that was the gist of it.

I was quite shocked at how dismissive the person was.

The self policing comment is an absolute shocker too but in light many things I've seen; the less we have to do with 'them' the better.

**richban** · 22nd May 2012, 21:20

Originally Posted by Moooools

How about if you melt down the old barrel and use the aluminum? Then it is derived from non competition parts.

So I could like, melt down two 2 strokes and make a 4 stroke.

If someone made an engine from scratch then I would buy them a beer, not worry about if it was legal. Or what it was based on.

**koba** · 22nd May 2012, 21:23

Originally Posted by richban

So I could like, melt down two 2 strokes and make a 4 stroke.

If someone made an engine from scratch then I would buy them a beer, not worry about if it was legal. Or what it was based on.

That uniflow 2 stroke would count, wouldn't it?

I'd love to know more about that if anyone has any more info...

**husaberg** · 22nd May 2012, 21:37

Originally Posted by koba

I have been in a similar situation with rules in another class.
The person who wrote the (flawed) rules was standing right next to me as I explained my interpretation to another observer.
He (quite rightly) corrected me but I didn't really like the condescending tone; his words dripped hubris.
I replied something along the lines of: "Well, you better tell that guy, he explained the rules to me and he has invested a considerable amount in maximising his position under the rules as he understands them, I know he is a smart bugger so I trust he would have interpreted them as well as anyone might expect".

OK, my reply wasn't quite that well formulated on the spot at the time but that was the gist of it.

I was quite shocked at how dismissive the person was.

The self policing comment is an absolute shocker too but in light many things I've seen; the less we have to do with 'them' the better.

Originally Posted by koba

That uniflow 2 stroke would count, wouldn't it?

I'd love to know more about that if anyone has any more info...

So would i. Speedpro or someone has mentioned weedeater conrods etc but shit this stuff really needs to be sorted before someone starts building a motor to the rules as they are written rather than how they may or may not be intended.

The rules need to be made so they are both affordable and fair to all.
The bearing should be open as should all internal parts with the possible exception of ceramic bearings which are bloody expensive. I would put Titanium rods and valves in the same boat as well.

But fooling around with 30 year New old stock YZ100 pistons or Wiesco over size for 85's and std bearing that are significantly dearer than competition parts is getting rather silly so the cc should maybe creep up a little to say 112cc for LC engines then Cheaper better and Safer kart pistons could be used.

**richban** · 22nd May 2012, 21:48

Originally Posted by husaberg

The rules need to be made so they are both affordable and fair to all.
The bearing should be open as should all internal parts with the possible exception of ceramic bearings which are bloody expensive. I would put Titanium rods and valves in the same boat as well.

But fooling around with 30 year New old stock YZ100 pistons or Wiesco over size for 85's and std bearing that are significantly dearer than competition parts is getting rather silly so the cc should maybe creep up a little to say 112cc for LC engines then Cheaper better and Safer kart pistons could be used.

Ahhh super funny. I should not laugh so hard with my busted up ribs. I like the bit about affordable and fair to all. That had me in the most pain.

**avgas** · 22nd May 2012, 21:57

Now that Buckets = F5 any chance we can have a POS class? I would pay to watch that.

heh F5

**husaberg** · 22nd May 2012, 22:50

Originally Posted by richban

Ahhh super funny. I should not laugh so hard with my busted up ribs. I like the bit about affordable and fair to all. That had me in the most pain.

OK my build is not that normal. Ok it's not that cheap either.
But it is still to a realistic budget. Infact far cheaper than for instance my sons 50cc mx bike.
It should also be competitive and last for more than three years unlike the KTM50.
Ok there could also have been a wee tiny (say dynamic squish) bit of two stroke bias creeping in there also.

but it is true that a Kart piston can be had for about $80 that is suitable for a 100cc bucket (available in honeable oversizes)
It is of course legal but to use it requires destroking this is not an issue for me (I am destroking anyway) but all those 100cc 2 strokes would have to destroke to use Them. Like speedpro did (it is not cheap) or like i was forced to do use a near $200 Wiesco prolite piston. Well i could have used a MB100 piston, but Honda don't make them anymore and even if they did they would have to be replace 4 times as often at 2x the price.

Also the bearings (MX ones)and so forth are better and cheaper But not everyone interprets them as legal. (Not getting into any arguments about them here though)
The rods for instance Wob has just imported a 100% by anyone's interpretation legal Rod for me. Cost $250 A MX one would have been far far cheaper.say probably $100-$125 (possibly better as well.)

The rules that were made to contain costs well sadly they no longer do. They increase them.

Remember the rules used to cap four strokes at 130.5cc because that was then common oversize for 125cc bikes.
100cc 2 strokes were common back then too.
The rules were first changed to accommodate Gl145 and then FXR150 to ensure cheap racing. So why not afford the 2 strokes the say leeway Rich?
We are only talking 6 cc here Rich and some bearings not MX cylinders or Rs crankshafts and gearbox's and mega expensive bit and pieces.
Bucket racing is meant to be affordable so is it not sensible to make use of the most cost effective parts.
The rules how they were originally written excluded competition parts entirely i think.
The wording was something like any factory hot up parts inc pistons cams valves.(In an effort to keep costs down.)
Well in isn't working as it was originally intended in 2012.
People at times mention the spirit of bucket racing. Well the spirit as i see it is cost effective and close racing for Two and four stokes.

Exit soapbox.

**Yow Ling** · 23rd May 2012, 06:24

Originally Posted by husaberg

OK my build is not that normal. Ok it's not that cheap either.

i was forced to do use a near $200 Wiesco prolite piston. Well i could have used a MB100 piston, but Honda don't make them anymore and even if they did they would have to be replace 4 times as often at 2x the price.

Also the bearings (MX ones)and so forth are better and cheaper But not everyone interprets them as legal. (Not getting into any arguments about them here though)

The rules that were made to contain costs well sadly they no longer do. They increase them.

The rules were first changed to accommodate Gl145 and then FXR150 to ensure cheap racing. So why not afford the 2 strokes the say leeway Rich?
We are only talking 6 cc here Rich and some bearings not MX cylinders or Rs crankshafts and gearbox's and mega expensive bit and pieces.

Bucket racing is meant to be affordable so is it not sensible to make use of the most cost effective parts.
The rules how they were originally written excluded competition parts entirely i think.
Well the spirit as i see it is cost effective and close racing for Two and four stokes.

Exit soapbox.

Bucket racing is affordable , if you have enough money you can afford it.
If you are poor get an FXR, dont try to build a GP bike. and dont get a shitter

So a Wiseco that lasts 4 times as long and is half the price of a Honda oem is somehow expensive ?

103cc is actually ok, if you dont like that , get an fxr or cbr then you can have 158cc, if you get your 2 stroke finished it will be way superior to many bikes, hardly in the spirit of buckets wot wot old chum

Bearings !!!!!!!!! Ceramic bearings are made for what ? Industrial purpose I would guess, so they no problem , big ends , cant see them when pressed up so they legal.

The rules are great if you want to race honestly but dont stand in the way if you dont, no amount of kb dribble is going to stop anyone from going to 106cc if they are dishonest, as far as I know there are no cheater buckets down here, but then its kinda self policing as most guys cant build their own engines anyway and secrets are best if not shared with anyone

**Grumph** · 23rd May 2012, 07:25

Fercrissake is this crap still going on....as a (very old and experienced) engine bulder the first thing you do is read the rules and build to them - as they are written, not as you want them to be.

watching buckets the hot tuning tip anyway is to fit a young hotshoe who can win on anything....

I would point out that if Husaberg has his way and changes are made to the rules then theres going to have to be a transition period of some considerable time so as not to immediately obsolete existing equipment.

**Bert** · 23rd May 2012, 07:27

Valid points Yow Ling...