Moto 3 in NZ

[jasonu]

No one in NZ has come to the party with an Aprilia yet, bar Cookies bike which he didn't use much, which I think is still available, so I am guessing no one is going to. .

How about this one
http://www.usgpru.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10727

[steveyb]

Why bother creating a shit storm Steve, if pistons are $2660.00 then it will be a self policeing class, not even the better funded teams are going to be able to afford that sort of outlay.
I looked into it, the europeans are spending 2500 Euro (average) every 2000 Km ( which is as many Km's as we did this nationals with Troy)
I wouldn't have spent that sort of money in the last 3 seasons on parts and you wouldn't have spent that much EVER! So why bother upsetting the billy-cart?
But!
If it does happen, so what? why should we or would we want to remain a technology back water?
What do we want to produce, riders with asperations of a 5th placing? or riders that are motivated to try as hard as they can to win, against all comers! And besides, even if they do appear on our grids, they still have to have pilots that control them!!!!!!!!!

Totally see your point, and know what you mean.
But I think that there were enough downhearted people around when Al was running his kitted RS (albeit that he rode it well fast, not arguing that part) that indicated that they were being turned off by the large(ish) amounts of money some were willing to spend.

That of course is life, you like it or you leave it. But I do think that we can in some way just put some form of lid on expenditures.
Creating a glass ceiling is not a good thing, but creating a chasm between the haves and havenots (in terms of $ not talent) is also not a good thing.

Hell, even you would be competitive on an NSF in NZ!!!

I reckon I have spent that sort of money over the past season and a bit, easy. But not on top of a $32k bike and not on one that will cost God knows how much if a valve lets go or something. I shudder at the thought.

Maybe it is on that thought that we should just hang on to our 2-strokes for as long as possible!!!

Good comments, that's why I started this thought.

[Ivan]

just for anyones intrest my 450 mx bike makes 56hp thats a brand new fuel injected 450 a 250mx engine would be around 28 or so pushing it to 35hp plus and over revving it would kill the engine fast a moto3 bike is expensive now but the price will drop as will parts when more builders start making bits etc

[richban]

just for anyones intrest my 450 mx bike makes 56hp thats a brand new fuel injected 450 a 250mx engine would be around 28 or so pushing it to 35hp plus and over revving it would kill the engine fast a moto3 bike is expensive now but the price will drop as will parts when more builders start making bits etc

I think a well thought through MX 250 engine conversion would make good power and last just fine. Assuming you rebuild the engine for what it will be doing.

[budda]

I think a well thought through MX 250 engine conversion would make good power and last just fine. Assuming you rebuild the engine for what it will be doing.

Correct - and when you've had a perve on the bikeporn of the Bakker frame for the RMZ motor, its not hard to start justiying things to yourself ...... just got to justify it to the MISSUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[budda]

Correct - and when you've had a perve on the bikeporn of the Bakker frame for the RMZ motor, its not hard to start justiying things to yourself ...... just got to justify it to the MISSUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And for those that are too stressed about building a 250 racer, theres always my personal favourite, the Moto450 concept .........
stone cold STANDARD MX450, with rearsets, shortened boingers, and bodywork. Swap from one to the other in an afternoon, just like we used to with 125's 35odd years ago ........... already F3 legal, whats stopping you ?

[steveyb]

Correct - and when you've had a perve on the bikeporn of the Bakker frame for the RMZ motor, its not hard to start justiying things to yourself ...... just got to justify it to the MISSUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahh bugger the Missus,...... oops not supposed to let on about that.....

But cereal.....

The Bakker bike is precisely one of the issues in what I am talking about. There are any number of "factories" that have made up a bike and announced it to the world: Sherco, Bianchi, Oral, Bakker, Ioda, GPTech, HarcPro and others. But none of them have made it to the Moto3 grids anywhere (Bianchi did race in Spain once I think).

Actually the Bakker looks suspiciously like an old Aprilia RSR125 with RMZ engine in it.

My point is that only two competitive Moto3 bikes (KTM, Honda) have yet made it to the startline with two or three others (Oral/Aprilia), KTM?/Czech frame, Mahindra and one or two others) not being competitive.

At the national/GPMono level I think that there really is a market opportunity here to develop a national level GPMono machine that will compete in the marketplace with Moriwaki. I know what the best MX engine is and I think I know what the best chassic combo will be, but it all needs testing and it all needs money to make it happen. I don't have the money. Anyone out there who does? Get in touch.

[scott411]

And for those that are too stressed about building a 250 racer, theres always my personal favourite, the Moto450 concept .........
stone cold STANDARD MX450, with rearsets, shortened boingers, and bodywork. Swap from one to the other in an afternoon, just like we used to with 125's 35odd years ago ........... already F3 legal, whats stopping you ?

as long as you keep the engines standard then you will be awesome with this idea, every manufacture does one, i can think if 8 different brands with a 450 single mxer,

however the top motard boys are now having issues with motors as they have started hoping them up and the revs they pull on the full circuits are causing issues, i think keeping the compression and heads standard might help this,

there was an american article i found a while ago which went on about dirt tracking and super singles and the maitnence they required on the mx based motors,

[scott411]

just for anyones intrest my 450 mx bike makes 56hp thats a brand new fuel injected 450 a 250mx engine would be around 28 or so pushing it to 35hp plus and over revving it would kill the engine fast a moto3 bike is expensive now but the price will drop as will parts when more builders start making bits etc

a std 250F moto bike is around 32 hp, a good race in NZ is prob 36 ish, they last approx 15 hours on a top end, and the rumour of the top bikes in the states are 43-45 hp (PC Kawasakis and Factory KTM's) made to last 2 mx races, and full rebuilds,

these will make the class cost at least twice (and more like 3 times) on the engine side as the 125 did, thats what it did in MX 8 years ago,

[CHOPPA]

My opinion would be to open it up to Moto 3 but no restrictions. If you want to run a 30k bike and all the associated costs then thats up to you

[tigertim20]

My opinion would be to open it up to Moto 3 but no restrictions. If you want to run a 30k bike and all the associated costs then thats up to you

I think thats a good idea too - I think few people are going to cough up that kind of outlay, and the class would be largely self-regulating.
If issue do crop up, then rule changes can be considered later on.
NZ isnt going to churn out world class riders if we dont explore the same classes the rest of the world are using.

[SWERVE]

I think thats a good idea too - I think few people are going to cough up that kind of outlay, and the class would be largely self-regulating.
If issue do crop up, then rule changes can be considered later on.
NZ isnt going to churn out world class riders if we dont explore the same classes the rest of the world are using.

I agree with all comments on one level or another...!
Yes it would be self regulating...... untill some one decided to write the chq!
But if they did and that was legal (within original/current rulings) then they should be allowed to run and the rules should NOT be altered to exclude them ........... its called progress.
Agree about having equal machinary in NZ to produce world class riders................ however one rider on a bike ***km faster than everybody else will not be beneficial as you only ride as fast as the competition.
How fast could GW have gone..............if pushed. Just an example of one person spending money / putting in time / when others dont..........OK admit you could add Mr Easton.

[Brian d marge]

Moto3 engine design
Moto2 chassis design set up
motogp prototype ...and guess where the skills have been learnt from

New Zealand hasnt the money but what is can do is use what it is good at ...

Why do we want a moto3 class what will it achieve>? currently I am unaware of any structured , for want to be engineers

what does one want to achieve with moto3 ? If the world is moving towards four strokes , then surely both eriders and crew need to be good at setting up ( underpowered aand/or peaky ) fourstrokes ( singles?)

What may need to happen is a rule change such as.; Moto3 unlimited engine tuning , but tight restrictions on chassis and ecu ....Moto2 cbr600 engines ( or yamaha,etc ) no modification, but unlimited chassis

ie using what we have to the best of our advantage.

Stephen

[CHOPPA]

You still have to be a good rider to make the bike go fast.

That is unless you have traction control

[tigertim20]

I agree with all comments on one level or another...!
Yes it would be self regulating...... untill some one decided to write the chq!
But if they did and that was legal (within original/current rulings) then they should be allowed to run and the rules should NOT be altered to exclude them ........... its called progress.
Agree about having equal machinary in NZ to produce world class riders................ however one rider on a bike ***km faster than everybody else will not be beneficial as you only ride as fast as the competition.
How fast could GW have gone..............if pushed. Just an example of one person spending money / putting in time / when others dont..........OK admit you could add Mr Easton.

my thinking was that if someone did write the cheque you could have a rule that requires them to start further back etc like the muscle car series does - big HP/faster lapping cars start at the rear xx seconds after the rest - not ideal, but it means nobody gets excluded, and everyone can ride whatever they want to ride, without the guys with deeper pockets automatically getting a massive advantage.
allows current riders/bike to compete, lets those with money buy the latest and greatest get into the mix, and gets NZ on the map using the latest tech.
I know many are not a fan of such rules, but to me it seems like a happy compromise - after all, passing is a big part of racing, if your bike just runs away down the straight every race, putting you a mile in the lead, you are missing out on practicing the art of passing in tough places arent you?
just my $0.02