Moto 3 in NZ

**steveyb** · 24th April 2012, 13:38

So, this is a forum, a place where ideas are mooted, discussed, debated, shat on, elevated etc.
So, Moto3.
Sooner or later we will move, slowly or quickly it doesn't matter, towards the Moto3 concept in our junior/entry/novice class (i.e. 125GP).
After having watched Moto3 at MotoGP and now the CEV (Spanish champs Moto3) races and also knowing that some Moto3 bikes are racing in Australia, a few things have come to mind that I think would benefit from some discussion.

1) Class name change: So, while this does not actually do much, it does encomapss the concepts and allows people to get their heads around things if the name is inclusive.

2) Disparity: The Moto3 machines that are available on the market, i.e. Honda NSF250 are significantly faster than our national level 125GP bikes. They are about the same speeds and laptimes as the Aprilia GP 125's which make 10-15 more HP than our natioanl level bikes. GPMono machines such as the MD250H are not that fast, and homemade versions will probably similar, so these bikes are competitive with our good 125's.

3) Noise: If we think we have problems with noise now, just wait until people start wanting to race these things. I don't know how they will go when you have to start whacking big mufflers on them, but they are pretty loud now.

4) Costs: The NSF250 is approx $32,000 landed, with no spares at all. I have seen what they come with, it is a seat rubber, a couple of NSF250 and Honda wing stickers and a couple of sprockets, that's all. No idea yet about running costs, but remember that in MotoGP the Moto3 teams are allowed to use 8 engines during the season. That's a lot of engines at god knows what cost each. There will be an HRC race kit, but that will probably be $32,000 also!

I have a source of 1 year old MD250H's from Europe for about €9500 + costs with fresh engines. Not sure of spares. (ANYONE INTERESTED CONTACT ME).

Suggestions: Change the name of the 125GP class to Moto3 as is used in the USA and elsewhere at national level, such as in Spain. But we may not be able to as Dorna or FIM have trademarked the name, but should be able to agree on use. If it is FIM then MNZ should be able to use it. So maybe NZMoto3, or MotoThree or something like that if we cannot use Moto3. The NZ 125GP class has been reformulated to allow 250cc 4-Stroke "GPMono" style bikes, so that is OK, we have that in place already.

I also would suggest that we restrict, i.e. ban, the use of proper Moto3 style machines in order to retain some level of competitiveness in the class. This mix would be the sort of like having a slow MotoGP bike racing in our Superbike class, they are that much faster, and more expensive. In Australia on the weekend, 6/12 Superlites were 4 strokes, 1 of those was a Moriwaki, the NSFs were 1-2 sec faster over a 76sec lap (same as Manfeild). Not as fast as an Aprilia RSW125, but we don't have any of them.

It just seems a bit of a stretch to think that we would get 6 NSF250's here when we can't even get new RS125's on the grid, so perhaps best to restrict their use from the start.

Anyway, comments?

**SWERVE** · 24th April 2012, 14:23

Hah Steve...........knew you would get bitten by the Moto 3 bug

**RobGassit** · 24th April 2012, 14:32

Makes perfect sense to at least restrict engines to less than exotica built from unobtainium. I think this could be a really exciting addition to NZ but anything to keep the costs relative to current GP125 would be great. Restrictions to dirt bike based engines or similar perhaps. Lot's of opportunities for Kiwi's to build prototypes as well, which would make it all the more interesting and great fun for the tuners. Perhaps all those clever buggers building exotic buckets could be lured away from F4? I personally would opt for the Moriwaki, maybe even let Sarah ride it!

**richban** · 24th April 2012, 14:36

I reckon the cost of keeping a 45-50hp 250 4 stroke on the track might just push people in the other direction. When they go bang, and they will. It will cost a shed load. Maybe now there might be some RSA Aprilla's that won't break the bank.

Yah can't ban a proper Moto3 machine and still have an RSA as legal. Just go race a Ninja if you want to have a more restricted class.

I like small capacity racing always have.

It is a globally relevant class and should be developed but maybe the 4 strokes will make it more expensive. Not sure.

**richban** · 24th April 2012, 14:40

Originally Posted by RobGassit

Perhaps all those clever buggers building exotic buckets could be lured away from F4? I personally would opt for the Moriwaki, maybe even let Sarah ride it!

Word on the street is they are already building them. But will they match the already proven 2 strokes.

**crazy man** · 24th April 2012, 15:48

just put a hp limit like 35-40hp witch l know would be hard to achieve anyway but in keeping with the 2 strokes. l do like the idea

**Yow Ling** · 24th April 2012, 15:52

I guess it is going to happen one day whether I like it or not

Here is the spare parts price list for the Honda

http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/al..._version_1.pdf

Was posted in the bucket section by Frits Overmars

Piston is NZ$2660.00 I guess I just stick to F4,

Parents start saving up !

**steveyb** · 24th April 2012, 16:17

Originally Posted by Yow Ling

I guess it is going to happen one day whether I like it or not

Here is the spare parts price list for the Honda

http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/al..._version_1.pdf

Was posted in the bucket section by Frits Overmars

Piston is NZ$2660.00 I guess I just stick to F4,

Parents start saving up !

I find it very interesting that HRC sold the RS125 with a complete spares kit with crank, pistons all sorts of stuff, and it was ready to race at national level, basically. Not at the front of national level, but in there somewhere.
But the NSF comes with nothing and would not be competitive straight away in MotoGP level which is where it is aimed.
Very interesting.
I wonder what the real rationale is behind that.

**steveyb** · 24th April 2012, 16:20

Originally Posted by crazy man

just put a hp limit like 35-40hp witch l know would be hard to achieve anyway but in keeping with the 2 strokes. l do like the idea

HP limits are impossible to police.

It is just too expensive and difficult to have dynos running around the place and I for one would be a bit pissed if my bike went pop on a dyno at the track! No one has the time to do it.

Besides, it is possible to buy Bluetooth capable ECUs which can be 'switched' to a lower HP ign curve if one wants to.

**richban** · 24th April 2012, 16:22

Originally Posted by steveyb

I find it very interesting that HRC sold the RS125 with a complete spares kit with crank, pistons all sorts of stuff, and it was ready to race at national level, basically. Not at the front of national level, but in there somewhere.
But the NSF comes with nothing and would not be competitive straight away in MotoGP level which is where it is aimed.
Very interesting.
I wonder what the real rationale is behind that.

Well back in the day you used to get a leather case with you ipod.

rational would be (need more money don't give nothing away).

**steveyb** · 24th April 2012, 16:29

Originally Posted by richban

I reckon the cost of keeping a 45-50hp 250 4 stroke on the track might just push people in the other direction. When they go bang, and they will. It will cost a shed load. Maybe now there might be some RSA Aprilla's that won't break the bank.

Yah can't ban a proper Moto3 machine and still have an RSA as legal. Just go race a Ninja if you want to have a more restricted class.

I like small capacity racing always have.

It is a globally relevant class and should be developed but maybe the 4 strokes will make it more expensive. Not sure.

I agree with the cost thing, but no one is gonna know until they know eh?
If the RSW's and RSA's were going to come onto the market I think they would have already, but the haven't. They will still be very expensive because so few were actually made compared to the Hondas and Yamahas, and the parts will be impossible to get.

No one in NZ has come to the party with an Aprilia yet, bar Cookies bike which he didn't use much, which I think is still available, so I am guessing no one is going to. From what I know about the Aprilias they are very difficult to get to run consistently without heaps of experience. Even Steve Briggs had trouble getting Kevin Grants 93 RS250 running properly. Maybe there was something wrong with it, but he could never get it to run well for very long.

**steveyb** · 24th April 2012, 16:31

Originally Posted by richban

Well back in the day you used to get a leather case with you ipod.

rational would be (need more money don't give nothing away).

What iPod? I don't have no iPod.......

Of course that is the business case, but does it make good sense in the long run re customer relations?

**steveyb** · 24th April 2012, 16:34

Originally Posted by SWERVE

Hah Steve...........knew you would get bitten by the Moto 3 bug

Hah!!

Actually, most of you will know that I am working with others to try to broaden our offering in NZ to attract riders from around the world to race in our championships.

For us to remain relevant in the world market we are simply going to have to offer 4-stroke 250s, like it or not.

I am not too keen on facing a blown up 4-stroke engine, that's for sure.

**richban** · 24th April 2012, 16:59

Originally Posted by steveyb

I agree with the cost thing, but no one is gonna know until they know eh?
If the RSW's and RSA's were going to come onto the market I think they would have already, but the haven't. They will still be very expensive because so few were actually made compared to the Hondas and Yamahas, and the parts will be impossible to get.

No one in NZ has come to the party with an Aprilia yet, bar Cookies bike which he didn't use much, which I think is still available, so I am guessing no one is going to. From what I know about the Aprilias they are very difficult to get to run consistently without heaps of experience. Even Steve Briggs had trouble getting Kevin Grants 93 RS250 running properly. Maybe there was something wrong with it, but he could never get it to run well for very long.

How much HP does a really sorted Honda or Yamaha 2 stroke make now?