Sprawl vs compact development?

[Hellzie]

I love this concept and will do it when I get permission. Seen lots of cool stores converted into housing down in Kati also.

Which is why I raise the argument, if you only need 200m - why can't we get that subdivided. Get a whole loft/shed thing going on with your own little slice of heaven.
Some of us can't afford the $400,000 for 400m but can afford $200K for sub-200m to build our shed/houses on.
And cross-leasing is like marrying your neighbors. Give me freehold fee simple any day.

Are you talking about converting existing commercial / industrial into residential or getting a 200m2 freehold site (greenfield or subdivided in an existing residential area) and building on it?

Also are we talking terrace houses or standalone? I'm trying to establish what you'd like? Designers / council / developers don't seem to ask very often, they just assume they know best - and they judge what people want by how many houses they sell... not really seeing that as a compromise - people are choosing from the options they're given rather than what they essentially want.

So if you had it your way, no rules, no zoning, just your budget.. what would you want? (and I mean how would you actually do it - e.g. buy 200m2 of land in x location, close to x, y and z, build a house / terrace / shed, etc.

Something took my interest a few years ago over in the Albany area of Akl. Industrial style units with a full apartment on a closed-in mezzanine level.
Massive amounts of space (easily fit a good sized boat + 2 cars + associated junk) plus a normal household without the "quater-acre-nightmare" (mowing the bleedin' lawns!) to worry about.

I was quite tempted with this concept. Obviously targetted towards the small business owner or import/export market.

So did this project get built? what made you change your mind?

[Brett]

I love this concept and will do it when I get permission. Seen lots of cool stores converted into housing down in Kati also.

Which is why I raise the argument, if you only need 200m - why can't we get that subdivided. Get a whole loft/shed thing going on with your own little slice of heaven.
Some of us can't afford the $400,000 for 400m but can afford $200K for sub-200m to build our shed/houses on.
And cross-leasing is like marrying your neighbors. Give me freehold fee simple any day.

Because then you would have a whole bunch of shonky developers buying up the land and building rough little units on the 200m2 sites. I agree with you on this, but it would need to be administered properly in terms of design principles etc. Ie...lots of units on smaller chunks of land but that look really good, function well together and actually create a good living environment rather than a slum...like exist in part of East Tamaki, Mangere, Manurewa, Penrose etc.

[Hellzie]

Councils largely dictate the sizes of the sites, along with cost of site acquisition - ie the price of the vendor on the land is based on how many sites it can be cut into.

Hobsonville point is pretty expensive for what you get! Although, nothing is cheap in Auckland anymore.Still....600k for a 180m2 3 beddy that far from town...no thanks. I am just finishing an architecturally designed, 230m2, 4 bedroom (Double rooms) with study, 2 bathroom, separate lounge, Tuscan brick and tile house with a reasonably high spec in The Gardens on 410m2, which we are selling for around the same price...and I know which I would rather have if I was looking for a home in that price bracket. But hey, everyone is different...and thank goodness for that.

Sorry where is this "The Gardens", I typed it into Google but too many things came up and I'm not sure which one it is...

[Brett]

So if you had it your way, no rules, no zoning, just your budget.. what would you want? (and I mean how would you actually do it - e.g. buy 200m2 of land in x location, close to x, y and z, build a house / terrace / shed, etc.

This would result in one hell of a mess, much akin to the slums of India IMO...allbeit the population is miniscule in comparison.

http://www.eaglecanyongolfestate.co....d=17&Itemid=49

The above link is for a golf estate that I have visited and is on the right path. Houses are nicely designed, yet compact, so are the house sites.However there is a lot of public space (in this case the golf course being a big space!) but also community buildings such as the 19th hole, which has a lot to offer, restuarants, gyms, smimming pool to name just a few. Now I am not saying that this is on the money at all, and it isn't the best I have seen...but it a good start. I am all about creating a sense of community, imagine if you had community games rooms/areas, sports fields, well designed communal living areas so that the houses aren't limited by being on small yards.

[Brett]

Sorry where is this "The Gardens", I typed it into Google but too many things came up and I'm not sure which one it is...

South Auckland, but a pretty upper-class suburb of South Auckland.

Some local real estate.....
http://www.realestate.co.nz/resident...ty/the-gardens

[jonbuoy]

Jonbuoy mentions the lockup and that is a key point we've gotta have space for the toys. Apartments tend to skimp on parking let alone having lockups. There has to be a balance for sure.

Yup Merv that was my biggest issue - wasn´t happy at all about not having a toy box patch of grass to kick a ball around in would be nice too - they have a lot of well maintained kids playgrounds and grassy areas around here. Nice thing is that its families using them day and night and not groups of hood rats/chav skum. NZ has a great opportunity to do them well and the space to put in cycle paths/rugby pitches/play areas/skate parks etc...

[Hellzie]

This would result in one hell of a mess, much akin to the slums of India IMO...allbeit the population is miniscule in comparison.

http://www.eaglecanyongolfestate.co....d=17&Itemid=49

The above link is for a golf estate that I have visited and is on the right path. Houses are nicely designed, yet compact, so are the house sites.However there is a lot of public space (in this case the golf course being a big space!) but also community buildings such as the 19th hole, which has a lot to offer, restuarants, gyms, smimming pool to name just a few. Now I am not saying that this is on the money at all, and it isn't the best I have seen...but it a good start. I am all about creating a sense of community, imagine if you had community games rooms/areas, sports fields, well designed communal living areas so that the houses aren't limited by being on small yards.

I'm not suggesting rules should be taken away, but the rules should work in a way where people actually get what they want (within reason), while providing certainty for everyone else that something totally unreasonable won't happen.

And as for the gold course project above, it's got some good elements (community facilities) but once again it's not catering for a range of incomes and lifestyles which is not a healthy happy sustainable community. The healthiest communities are ones where people can and want to live there throughout their lifetime, and have long lasting relationships with friends and neighbours.

[Hellzie]

Yup Merv that was my biggest issue - wasn´t happy at all about not having a toy box patch of grass to kick a ball around in would be nice too - they have a lot of well maintained kids playgrounds and grassy areas around here. Nice thing is that its families using them day and night and not groups of hood rats/chav skum. NZ has a great opportunity to do them well and the space to put in cycle paths/rugby pitches/play areas/skate parks etc...

Do you have any piccies or places in particular that you think are nice over there? What did you end up doing to solve the issues? Do you have lock up space somewhere or have you had to compromise? And are there other things that are better so you're happy (er) overall?

[Swoop]

So did this project get built? what made you change your mind?

Yes the project was existing when I stumbled upon it while being "nosey" around the Albany area.
A very sensible design idea. They appeared to be tilt-slab construction, so less chance of being a "leaky building"!

I would have been more interested apart from finding Schloss Swoop out west. Much nicer location.

[Brett]

I'm not suggesting rules should be taken away, but the rules should work in a way where people actually get what they want (within reason), while providing certainty for everyone else that something totally unreasonable won't happen.

And as for the gold course project above, it's got some good elements (community facilities) but once again it's not catering for a range of incomes and lifestyles which is not a healthy happy sustainable community. The healthiest communities are ones where people can and want to live there throughout their lifetime, and have long lasting relationships with friends and neighbours.

Absolutely agree on both points. Only showing that as a potential example of something approximating what could be done.

[jonbuoy]

Do you have any piccies or places in particular that you think are nice over there? What did you end up doing to solve the issues? Do you have lock up space somewhere or have you had to compromise? And are there other things that are better so you're happy (er) overall?

http://www.coastalpropertiesmallorca...caliu-mallorca

Have a scan through the pictures, most of these are run by community management which restrict what you can and can't do with your own place but they also sort out disputes and manage all maintenance issues. I have a lock up garage which keeps me happy. I dont live in that complex but its a nice example of what you can do.

Where we live now is somewhere we can stay until they drag us off to an old peoples home, disabled friendly, short walk to shops etc.

[avgas]

we just assume that everyone wants 400m2... we assume everyone wants 3-4 bedrooms, 2 garage, 2-3 bathrooms, 2 living rooms...

Yep - fact of the matter, if I had a choice between a 2-bed apartment and a 2 bed townhouse where I owned the land, both in the city, both for the same price......well its not rocket science. As for simply moving out further and getting more land - would love to, but marriage is about compromise.

Are you talking about converting existing commercial / industrial into residential or getting a 200m2 freehold site (greenfield or subdivided in an existing residential area) and building on it?

Also are we talking terrace houses or standalone? I'm trying to establish what you'd like? Designers / council / developers don't seem to ask very often, they just assume they know best - and they judge what people want by how many houses they sell... not really seeing that as a compromise - people are choosing from the options they're given rather than what they essentially want.

So if you had it your way, no rules, no zoning, just your budget.. what would you want? (and I mean how would you actually do it - e.g. buy 200m2 of land in x location, close to x, y and z, build a house / terrace / shed, etc.

Either or. Seen shit loads of loft developments when I was overseas. Esp NY. But if we simply changed the subdivide rules to smaller land ammounts people could live in the good old fashion gottage or similar.
Things like this could be then implemented.
http://www.getawayhomes.co.nz/Site/Home.ashx


But stuff like this would never take off if people don't have the budget to buy a small amount of land.
Like I said earlier - it amazed me when I was in Japan staying in little houses on little blocks (250m roughly) of land and yet it was incredibly comfy. They even had motorbike garages!!!!

Also if we made it a national thing to have 200m subdivisions - it would mean kids right out of school could work towards buying their first home and have it paid for before they finish their apprenticeships etc. But initially I think it would have to start where its needed - in the city's, where a small block of land costs in excess of 200K.

We can't assume we have all the answers and our way of life as it exists is perfect - there are smart people outside of NZ too you know.

Because then you would have a whole bunch of shonky developers buying up the land and building rough little units on the 200m2 sites. I agree with you on this, but it would need to be administered properly in terms of design principles etc. Ie...lots of units on smaller chunks of land but that look really good, function well together and actually create a good living environment rather than a slum...like exist in part of East Tamaki, Mangere, Manurewa, Penrose etc.

Shonky happens due to people not the land size. Ponsonby used to be a drug alley. Now they can't afford to live there. As prices go up the same will happen in the other areas.
I personally believe there should be no state housing within 50km of a CBD. But that's just me, and I think that people are a bigger problem than who designs a house and what its made of.
Many of my trips overseas has taught me that we really don't know shit when it comes to 'sprawl' or close-knit housing. But I guess up until now we pretty much haven't had to learn it.

[Hellzie]

Yep - fact of the matter, if I had a choice between a 2-bed apartment and a 2 bed townhouse where I owned the land, both in the city, both for the same price......well its not rocket science. As for simply moving out further and getting more land - would love to, but marriage is about compromise.

Agreeeeed.

We can't assume we have all the answers and our way of life as it exists is perfect - there are smart people outside of NZ too you know.

Yep, but the reason I'm looking for local examples is that people respond to local examples better. If you show something from overseas people tend to say "well that can't happen here because we have different issues / different climate / different lifestyle. As much as I agree that essentially underneath it all, humans are all the same with the same basic needs, Kiwis tend to like to think we're different. And its easier convincing council if you can show them local examples.

I personally believe there should be no state housing within 50km of a CBD. But that's just me, and I think that people are a bigger problem than who designs a house and what its made of.

But those are the people that need to be close to services and public transport etc as they can't afford to travel by or own multiple cars, etc. Transport poverty is a very real issue. and will be getting worse.

Many of my trips overseas has taught me that we really don't know shit when it comes to 'sprawl' or close-knit housing. But I guess up until now we pretty much haven't had to learn it.

Yep totally agree with you there. .. and the sad thing is, a lot of people still seem to think it's a non-issue. They ignore the negative effects of it apparent all over the world. We seem to be happy repeating the same mistakes everyone else has made.

[avgas]

But those are the people that need to be close to services and public transport etc as they can't afford to travel by or own multiple cars, etc. Transport poverty is a very real issue. and will be getting worse.

Wrong thing to say to me. I studied in engineering, business and economics. Doesn't make me smart - but makes me cold to things that don't solve problems.
Consultants fuck me off on a daily basis.

If there is a transport problem - fix the transport problem.
If there is a housing problem, fix the housing problem.

Don't botch up a housing to fix a transport problem. Don't fuck up transport to fix a housing problem.
Separate problems that need separate solutions.

People who try to kill 2 birds with one stone typically don't have the budget to solve either properly.
The result is usually a pile of shit when people combine problems.

[Swoop]

Ponsonby used to be a drug alley. Now they can't afford to live there.

I dunno about that. Seems to be a few druggies that can live there still, and drive flash cars...