teenage road deaths

[yungatart]

It matters not one whit what rules we put in place. It will always happen. Young men are fundamentally flawed into thinking that they are immortal. If it isn't cars it will be, and also currently is, something else dangerous killing them needlessly. Every culture experiences the same difficulty and some harness it better than others. Tribal societies with initiation rite ceremonies and protocols typically experience less "young bloke stupidity" than "Western" Judeo-Christion society. We don't provide a great deal of leadership or training on what it means to be a Man, or a Woman for that matter. We leave a lot to chance and judgement. It surprises me that there are so many of us.

So are you saying that we should just accept that a high proportion of our kids will kill themselves on the road driving cars that are way too powerful for their woefully inadequate skill level and get on with our own lives?

[James Deuce]

So are you saying that we should just accept that a high proportion of our kids will kill themselves on the road driving cars that are way too powerful for their woefully inadequate skill level and get on with our own lives?

Oh for fucks sake.

Read the post then say something sensible.

I'm saying it is our own fault thatwe haven't, and continue to refuse to take responsibility for making sure that our kids don't define themselves and their identity in such a way that have to search for external validation to feel valued.

The issue isn't about cars.

[yungatart]

Love my teenager and his mates are pretty cool too ( for the most part). I definitely don't want him or them leaving the planet in that fashion. I hear what you are saying Jim2, but how the f... do we change that attitude that says the passage to adulthood in Noo Zld is get drunk, get laid, get stoned (not necessarily in that order) and then try and take yourself and a few mates out in a high speed accident. If you survive, welcome to the brotherhood.
Where do you begin, when all around us are govt depts who specialise in taking away our responsibilities towards ourselves and others and then an education system that teaches that that is how it should be.

[James Deuce]

Love my teenager and his mates are pretty cool too ( for the most part). I definitely don't want him or them leaving the planet in that fashion. I hear what you are saying Jim2, but how the f... do we change that attitude that says the passage to adulthood in Noo Zld is get drunk, get laid, get stoned (not necessarily in that order) and then try and take yourself and a few mates out in a high speed accident. If you survive, welcome to the brotherhood.
Where do you begin, when all around us are govt depts who specialise in taking away our responsibilities towards ourselves and others and then an education system that teaches that that is how it should be.

It starts in the home with each person in NZ. It mostly starts with Dads. Men who've usually had a shit upbringing, who can look back with the benefit of hindsight and see that their Dad's were trying to teach them something, and get a grasp of that something. I know you love your kids. I love mine too, but the desire to protect kids is partly to blame for their inability to respond appropriately to subtle and overt threats to their survival. To teach them values that they can hold to in times of crisis that let them make decisions that are correct for the situation.

Most of all society needs to let us reclaim "male" for men. Men and women are very different. The feminisation of society in general, i.e. the removal of all risk, all violence, all anger, all individual competition, as negative and counter productive needs to be addressed at a grass roots level. We should be empowering our kids, boys especially, to achieve and succeed in terms that they value, not that their identity and gender identity is founded on shallow values of appearance, "coolness", and the values of fleeting and successive "pop cultures".

Most of all they need to be actively taught that life has value, that it is short and brutal if not respected, and that other people need to be allowed to live their life too. How many people sit down and say that to their kids? Actually say, "Don't hurt things. It's bad and there will be repercussions if you do that." We assume that kids somehow "absorb" our values. Boys need to be told, over, and over, and over, what is acceptable. Girls are acutely socially aware from an early age. Boys aren't.

We need to stop blaming outside agencies and just say to hell with what a govt dept has legislated. I want my kids to respect other people, not hurt them, steal their stuff, lie, cheat, and put their lives in danger. Most of all I want to be able to say to my Sons that being a man doesn't mean being the alpha male is the only worthy life.

[James Deuce]

Errr - I'm drunk and emotional so just ignore me. I tend to rant a bit when the neurotoxins remove my inhibitions. Suppressed rage at social injustice you know.

[SPman]

So are you saying that we should just accept that a high proportion of our kids will kill themselves on the road driving cars that are way too powerful for their woefully inadequate skill level and get on with our own lives?

Yes!
Passive eugenics!
See also Jims post which I totally agree with!!

[scumdog]

And I still get comments like "there's enough room for eight in this car" and "aw, would you rather one of these drunks with a full licence drove or me with my learners licence"? or "these old cars are cool 'cos they only have two front seatbelts and none in the back"


Or "I'm a really good driver" ME: "who told you?" them: "nobody, I know I am, nobody had to tell me"


Arrrrgh!!!!!

[TonyB]

Errr - I'm drunk and emotional so just ignore me. I tend to rant a bit when the neurotoxins remove my inhibitions. Suppressed rage at social injustice you know.

Jim- don't appologise for that rant. There's a lot of truth in there.

I've been saying for years that we are creating a society where men don't fit in. We need to ask ourselves why most boys think it is uncool* to achieve acidemicaly at school. It's fine to do it on the sports feild, but not in the class room- why is that? Are they over compensating for an enviroment that has been overly shifted in the girls favour? Only a handfull of boys can achieve what they want on the sports feild... whats left for the ones that can't? Especially in an urban enviroment where you can't go pig/ deer hunting and most 'masculine' activities are socially unacceptable. Did anyone see 'The Real Fight Club' on TV? These guys- business professionals from early 20's to mid 50's- were going boxing for this very reason.

I remember when I was in my late teens or early 20's sitting down with a bunch of mates and talking about stuff like this over far too many beers. One of my mates said something like 'when do we become men? I still feel like a kid, other societies have a right-of-passage- when do we KNOW that we are men?'

Now I'm ranting...LOL

*no doubt showing my age here

[Jantar]

We need to ask ourselves why most boys think it is uncool* to achieve acidemicaly at school. It's fine to do it on the sports feild, but not in the class room- why is that? Are they over compensating for an enviroment that has been overly shifted in the girls favour?

There has been a lot of recent research comparing the male and female brain, and how the differences show up in education and achievement. One of the main differences is that the female of the species is far more capable at multi-tasking, while the male is far better at problem solving and competition.

It is in the basic male psyche to be the best at something. In the caveman days he may have been the best hunter, or the best warrior, or the best tool maker. The female though is more co-operative rather than competive, and works best to a standard. Hence the female is far better at raising children, working in a group (modern politics perhaps?), or managing routines.

In education, we used to foster a competive attitude with streamed classes, competitive exams, class rankings etc. This system did favour boys over girls and there was concern that girls didn't do so well at school. Then, about 20 years ago, education started to change to standards based system which today has evolved to NCEA. Standards have been dumbed down to reduce any sense of failure, and as long as a minumum standard is met, that is now considered acceptable.

Boys no longer have anything to compete for in the classroom. so they compete on the road instead.

[MSTRS:Me]

Reading this thread shows that no further proof is reqd that the dastardly plan to erode our rights & reponsibilties is working. Hand in hand with that goes the disappearance of the ability to think for ourselves. Time for a National/Act/NZ First coalition methinks. Or a beer. Or something.

[Beemer]

Unfortunately, travelling at 100kph in a 50kph zone and overtaking a car is always going to be a recipe for disaster. It's amazing that any of them survived considering there is no way all of them could have been wearing a seatbelt - six bodies and five (at most) seatbelts.

When I was growing up no one could afford high powered cars like this and I think it probably did result in more people surviving accidents because they were more likely to involve sliding off the road than flying through the air and rolling at great speed.

I don't know what the answer is either - I've seen people who can crash no matter what they are driving so just restricting the power wouldn't stop the deaths - but it possibly would reduce the number of accidents.

It's about time parents started parenting. I realise many parents look on their children as their friends, but this is not always a good idea. When I was 14, if I wasn't home when I said I'd be (and the deadline sure as hell wasn't 3am!), my mother would come looking for me! Hell, she was like that until I left home at 23! But as she pointed out to me, she never had to worry about getting a call in the early hours to say I was in hospital or worse.

Perhaps if wearing a baseball cap backwards and not being able to see out of your car windows because you were sitting on the floor became suddenly uncool, voila! the problem could disappear overnight!

[MSTRS:Me]

Actually tho. Most of the 'old' standards as us 40+ers would understand them, existed for good reason. Social/Law changes that have been wrought in the last 20 years may have been wellmeaning but we are seeing the realities now. Jim2 & Jantar - you are right. Imposing social standards and individual responsibility begins in the home and it does seem to be lacking. Our education system is geared at creating the beige & unremarkable. Competition is what boys need and when denied it they will 'find' it where they can as soon as they are out of a controlled situation (let's face it, the boi-racer culture is one of these). How do we 'turn the clock back' tho?

[MSTRS:Me]

Unfortunately, travelling at 100kph in a 50kph zone and overtaking a car is always going to be a recipe for disaster.

This morning's paper reports that the speed was estimated by a resident at 130Kph (I think was higher - the photo of the car certainly suggests that). The driver was not the owner & was apparently their sober driver. He normally drove an 'underpowered bomb' so the power of a turbo'd Familia would be a huge temptation. Report also says that they swerved to avoid a car crossing their path from the left rather than overtaking. Should this prove to be the case, it shows that the driver of the other car (perhaps) thought that there was plenty of time to cross because of the distance the crashcar had yet to travel before reaching the intersection.

[crazyxr250rider]

hmmmm again why do idiot like this own cars
my couson owns a
subaru wrx around 300hp and 1 1/3 tonnes
he is 23yrs however he has been driving motor cars since he was 12yrs(thats another story) and has never crashed his average open road speed is
140-180kph
just making the point that its not the speeders or the younger drivers
its the unexperienced drivers that have NOT got proper driveing tecniqes

Ps i cant speel for shit

[onearmedbandit]

I have not read all of the above posts but I know I'm only here by luck now too, plenty of times when I was a 'yoof' (now 29) that my friends and I were incredibly lucky not to be in the same situation as these unfortunate souls. And from my reasonably wide group of friends, I know a lot of them are in the same boat. Whether from feeling 'bullet-proof' or from basic lack of experience behind the wheel, but I know things could've been much worse.

I'm not trying to offer any answers (obviously), but all I'm saying is that in all of our lives we too could've ended up like these guys. So is there any resolve, probably not. Young people will always feel like they know it all and are bullet proof, combine that with a lack of experience and you've got a recipie for disaster, russian roulettte style.