Electric race bikes?

[bogan]

bit impractical though dont you think?

Ok, you're right, its far more practical to just bury our heads in the sand and leave the oil supply problem for another day And with the dropping fuel prices, electrics will never be cheaper to run

[wharfy]

No it's impossible, stop defending EV now.

There isn't enough lithium to go around, unless you start smashing all sorts of conservation laws.

Unless we start mining asteroids!

But seriously we'll run out of lithium first.

Hydrogen > Lithium.

Well then I guess some other technology will have to be developed to store the electricity
A lot of smart people are working in this shit !
http://www.alternative-energy-news.i...ce-electricity
Or maybe just ditch the batteries altogether
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireles...y_transmission

[Dave-]

Ok, you're right, its far more practical to just bury our heads in the sand and leave the oil supply problem for another day And with the dropping fuel prices, electrics will never be cheaper to run

Don't get me wrong, we do need to do something but electricity is not the way....unless....

Well then I guess some other technology will have to be developed to store the electricity
A lot of smart people are working in this shit !
http://www.alternative-energy-news.i...ce-electricity
Or maybe just ditch the batteries altogether
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireles...y_transmission

...unless....you manage to convince someone to fund research into breaking fundamental laws of physics! (see above for examples - actually that article is very cute, 3000 kelvins haha reminds me of JIGGAWATTS!)

But seriously electricity just moves the pollutant from the car to the energy provider, plus there's the extraction and processesing of whatever battery you guys wish to link on wikipedia so you're no better off. However with hydrogen, a system could be invented (and a lot of money could be made) to convert current petroleum cars to hydrogen, plus you reduce the emissions to 0 all we just need to find a catalyst so the electrolosis of water would be easier.

And incase you feel this has strayed off topic a wee bit, an electric race bike is not feasible as no one in the larger industry would support it, and it'd get its ass kicked by an H2 bike.

[bogan]

The hydrogen engine conversion cost is a non-argument from a global point of view, as the vehicle fleet production and turnover is so quick the spread of a beneficial technology would be fast enough to keep petrol prices down for the rest of us during the transition period.

Also, where do you expect the power to for hydrogen electrolysis to come from? and subsequently waste 3/4 of it due to ICE inefficiencies...

I wonder what the industries would support if they started a race where the only tech limitation was energy contained in the 'tank' at the start of the race?

[Dave-]

The hydrogen engine conversion cost is a non-argument from a global point of view, as the vehicle fleet production and turnover is so quick the spread of a beneficial technology would be fast enough to keep petrol prices down for the rest of us during the transition period.

Also, where do you expect the power to for hydrogen electrolysis to come from? and subsequently waste 3/4 of it due to ICE inefficiencies...

I wonder what the industries would support if they started a race where the only tech limitation was energy contained in the 'tank' at the start of the race?

Is the turn over really that high? I'm probably trying for change too fast, expecting the petrol station to one day simply not have gas. haha

the inefficiency of electrolosis is a nuisance, granted, but I did mention a catalyst, there's groups out there (much like the battery buddies) who are trying to find a solution to that and are also making good headway.

I just feel putting our resources into researching electricity is silly when hydrogen offers so much more without a huge change to the industy.

on the topic of an energy race, 24 hours of le man has more or less turned into that, obviously the team who stops the least has an upper hand, some fascinating tech going into those cars.

[bogan]

Average age of vehicles is around 10years I think. So not an overnight change, but quick enough to be in line with the adoption of that sort of technology anyway.

The efficiency of electrolysis is a whole other issue, I was referring to the inefficient way you proposed it is used. The average car is 25-30% fuel efficient, which I assume would not change if you just do a hydrogen fuel conversion. Add in the 50-80% hydrogen generation efficiency, and you get 12-20% overall energy efficiency. Against about 70-80% for battery electrics; and you said battery EVs would place a strain on the power grid

Does the 24hr have a fuel limit? I thought it was just pitting strategy, which is more about fuel energy density than the energy amount.

[Dave-]

Average age of vehicles is around 10years I think. So not an overnight change, but quick enough to be in line with the adoption of that sort of technology anyway.

The efficiency of electrolysis is a whole other issue, I was referring to the inefficient way you proposed it is used. The average car is 25-30% fuel efficient, which I assume would not change if you just do a hydrogen fuel conversion. Add in the 50-80% hydrogen generation efficiency, and you get 12-20% overall energy efficiency. Against about 70-80% for battery electrics; and you said battery EVs would place a strain on the power grid

Does the 24hr have a fuel limit? I thought it was just pitting strategy, which is more about fuel energy density than the energy amount.

10 years would be crazy fast too, both my cars are 20+ years, bike is 4 years haha but im a poor student so hardly at the peak of the normal distribution.

I dont know which way the efficiency of the engine would go, could be more efficient cause the fuel density is ~18 times higher, but that could be balanced by the heavier engine components one would need to support combustion with 3 times the energy, I'd love to take a big fat chevvy block, tip it upside down, remove the sump and feed hydrogen up through the carburettors, see how long she goes before the heads explode....or it backfires and my garage get blown to pieces.

I don't offer hydrogen as 'better' but as a more sustainable alternative, it seems wiser to use water, there's a lot of it! and it doesnt damage the water by taking it apart and putting it back together again.

I dont know what official FIA regulations for le man is, but it is a pitting strategy, but the cars are also suppose to be aimed towards being economical.

[bogan]

I dont know which way the efficiency of the engine would go, could be more efficient cause the fuel density is ~18 times higher, but that could be balanced by the heavier engine components one would need to support combustion with 3 times the energy, I'd love to take a big fat chevvy block, tip it upside down, remove the sump and feed hydrogen up through the carburettors, see how long she goes before the heads explode....or it backfires and my garage get blown to pieces.

Heavier engine components? Sounds a like a lot more work than a simple fuel conversion.

I'm all for exploring other solutions, but you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs arsehole. It looks to me like:

Its less efficient to generate, and requires chemical catalysts to do so even then, so not completely green.
High conversion cost for existing vehicles.
Inefficient to use in any ICE vehicle, and will always be so; and harder to put in regen braking too.
Difficult/dangerous to store/transport, often having chemicals used in this as well; and energy required to compress, or cool it also.

I think resources are better used trying to recycle used batteries, or come up with new types of batteries or supercaps, or even room temp superconductors. Electrical energy stored as such, just seems like a more direct, and better approach to focus on.

[Dave-]

Heavier engine components? Sounds a like a lot more work than a simple fuel conversion.

I'm all for exploring other solutions, but you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs arsehole. It looks to me like:

Its less efficient to generate, and requires chemical catalysts to do so even then, so not completely green.
High conversion cost for existing vehicles.
Inefficient to use in any ICE vehicle, and will always be so; and harder to put in regen braking too.
Difficult/dangerous to store/transport, often having chemicals used in this as well; and energy required to compress, or cool it also.

I think resources are better used trying to recycle used batteries, or come up with new types of batteries or supercaps, or even room temp superconductors. Electrical energy stored as such, just seems like a more direct, and better approach to focus on.

oh :P I'll leave the calcs up the mech boys.

ironically I'm electrical/computer engineering, there's probably a lot of money in taking advantage of other peoples misconeptions on EV's huh....

GO EV! should we start a thread discussing an E-Superbike for 2013 nationals?