Property costs in NZ - the heart of evil

[BMWST?]

Nah, just more of the same social pissing contest, who can be the most avant garde consumer on the block

There is an interesting scheme afoot.I beleive its called the simple house,about 140 sq m max and costs no more than 1400 a sq m,simple shapes simple roofs,and a simplified code to go with it,do some sums on that.
Some of the cost of the modern house is linked to the more complex codes and the better engineering for wind and earthquake.We have much better fixings through houses now,and that involves time and materials.The double garage and ldy adds 40 sq m to the average house.in the 50 and 60 a lot of people didnt own cars let alone have a garage

[BoristheBiter]

There is an interesting scheme afoot.I beleive its called the simple house,about 140 sq m max and costs no more than 1400 a sq m,simple shapes simple roofs,and a simplified code to go with it,do some sums on that.
Some of the cost of the modern house is linked to the more complex codes and the better engineering for wind and earthquake.We have much better fixings through houses now,and that involves time and materials.The double garage and ldy adds 40 sq m to the average house.in the 50 and 60 a lot of people didnt own cars let alone have a garage

Hell we didn't have a driveway, or a telly. now they want one in every room (telly that is).

[BMWST?]

Hell we didn't have a driveway, or a telly. now they want one in every room (telly that is).

I do frames and trusses for a crust,you wouldnt beleive how hard we have to work on the simplest looking house,very high wind all hipped rooves,big open plan spaces, and large openings push our truss program and fixings to the max,and I beleive in many cases are outside the scope of nzs 3604( or the spirit of it)

[Brian d marge]

I could build a big house for 2/5th of fk all if the men from the ministry would let me , and pretty sharp it would look an all

Stephen

[James Deuce]

There is an interesting scheme afoot.I beleive its called the simple house,about 140 sq m max and costs no more than 1400 a sq m,simple shapes simple roofs,and a simplified code to go with it,do some sums on that.

Still far too expensive. You're not getting any change out of $600k to build that in Greytown, let alone Auckland.

[BMWST?]

Still far too expensive. You're not getting any change out of $600k to build that in Greytown, let alone Auckland.

Eh,140x1400=196,000 and that at the top end of the scheme,plus land which the other side of the equation

[Ocean1]

There is an interesting scheme afoot.I beleive its called the simple house,about 140 sq m max and costs no more than 1400 a sq m,simple shapes simple roofs,and a simplified code to go with it,do some sums on that.
Some of the cost of the modern house is linked to the more complex codes and the better engineering for wind and earthquake.We have much better fixings through houses now,and that involves time and materials.The double garage and ldy adds 40 sq m to the average house.in the 50 and 60 a lot of people didnt own cars let alone have a garage

That was sort of my point. Rants about comparative housing costs seem to always compare 50's and 60's prices with todays and completely ignore the fact that the houses couldn't be more different.

As for construction standards... I know enough about how they're instigated and specified to suggest that some are merely sops to the politically correct. Like double glazing.

Still. Reasons to be pissed remain. Modern materials cost a fraction to manufacture of those available then, and yet manage to command higher prices from the end user. Councils insert themselves into the money flow issuing from developments and milk it for all it's worth, forcing unreasonably high land prices.

[BoristheBiter]

I do frames and trusses for a crust,you wouldnt beleive how hard we have to work on the simplest looking house,very high wind all hipped rooves,big open plan spaces, and large openings push our truss program and fixings to the max,and I beleive in many cases are outside the scope of nzs 3604( or the spirit of it)

I was a draftsman for nicks building before I went back to engineering.

Still far too expensive. You're not getting any change out of $600k to build that in Greytown, let alone Auckland.

WTF, top lockwood is based on 3000 per sqm, that would make it a 200sqm house

[James Deuce]

Eh,140x1400=196,000 and that at the top end of the scheme,plus land which the other side of the equation

Land. $150k for a freehold 500m2 section in Greytown. So you're at $350k with no council approval, no interior finishing, no driveway, no garage, no fencing, no paving, no clothesline, and no utilities connection fees, no furniture, no curtains. There's no mention of kitchen or bathroom appliances and fittings or carpet. There needs to be heating and ventilation systems in their too. The council charges $6k per utility to hook it up and reserves the right to inspect the build at any time at your cost of $148/hour. So we'll call that $15k. $365k. Driveways work out at between $10 and $15k per 20m of single width paving over here. We'll go conservative with the driveway and paving and say $50k. $415k. Garage. A single Ideal with a concrete floor and workspace is about $25k if you want power and water. $440k. Houseload of shitty carpet that will need replacing in 5 years. $8k. We'll budget $2k for the inevitable carpeting fuck ups. $450k, INterior finishing, $20k, $470k. Basic bathroom, $5k, $475k. Basic kitchen pack and appliances, $15k. $490k, Curtains - really nasty ones, $2.5k. $492.5k. Section fencing, basic 1.5m timber, $20k. Landscaping and plants, basic, $5k, so we've already creaked over $500k. Don't forget to add the magic council fees to get compliance for all the things they didn't tell you about before you started and you can add an extra $5k for that minimum. Then there will be all the stuff that plumbers and sparkies get wrong during the build that you have to call people back to fix. The original tradepeople magically disappear along with their work standards guarantees so you have to pay again.

Building a house may not be rocket science. Fleecing a "customer" is down to a fine art in NZ though, from the council to the decorator, as is hiding all the building variables in post-build variations invoices. If you don't budget $600k for that build, you're an idiot. You then end up with a house that will have an RV of $420k and a market value of $340-$380k, depending on how desperate the vendor is to ditch the debt lemon they just built.

We've gone into this in detail, and decided that if we build, we have to stay in it for 20 years, planning for one major boom and bust cycle during that time, to start making money on any house build "investment".

[James Deuce]

WTF, top lockwood is based on 3000 per sqm, that would make it a 200sqm house

There's more to any build than what Lockwood quote, and the number of people who've gone bankrupt in the last 2 years trying to build here based on a spec home builder's quote is phenomenal. One couple we know have just divorced and managed to sell an $810k build for $665k. They were quoted $580k. They were presented with a $230k variation at the end of build.

[Brian d marge]

Land. $150k for a freehold 500m2 section in Greytown. So you're at $350k with no council approval, no interior finishing, no driveway, no garage, no fencing, no paving, no clothesline, and no utilities connection fees, no furniture, no curtains. There's no mention of kitchen or bathroom appliances and fittings or carpet. There needs to be heating and ventilation systems in their too. The council charges $6k per utility to hook it up and reserves the right to inspect the build at any time at your cost of $148/hour. So we'll call that $15k. $365k. Driveways work out at between $10 and $15k per 20m of single width paving over here. We'll go conservative with the driveway and paving and say $50k. $415k. Garage. A single Ideal with a concrete floor and workspace is about $25k if you want power and water. $440k. Houseload of shitty carpet that will need replacing in 5 years. $8k. We'll budget $2k for the inevitable carpeting fuck ups. $450k, INterior finishing, $20k, $470k. Basic bathroom, $5k, $475k. Basic kitchen pack and appliances, $15k. $490k, Curtains - really nasty ones, $2.5k. $492.5k. Section fencing, basic 1.5m timber, $20k. Landscaping and plants, basic, $5k, so we've already creaked over $500k. Don't forget to add the magic council fees to get compliance for all the things they didn't tell you about before you started and you can add an extra $5k for that minimum. Then there will be all the stuff that plumbers and sparkies get wrong during the build that you have to call people back to fix. The original tradepeople magically disappear along with their work standards guarantees so you have to pay again.

Building a house may not be rocket science. Fleecing a "customer" is down to a fine art in NZ though, from the council to the decorator, as is hiding all the building variables in post-build variations invoices. If you don't budget $600k for that build, you're an idiot. You then end up with a house that will have an RV of $420k and a market value of $340-$380k, depending on how desperate the vendor is to ditch the debt lemon they just built.

We've gone into this in detail, and decided that if we build, we have to stay in it for 20 years, planning for one major boom and bust cycle during that time, to start making money on any house build "investment".

A couple of thoughts

1, The NZ dollars doesnt buy much
2,How much of that could you " save"
3, How much would and alternative house cost " IF" they could be built,
4. How can a working stiff pay for such an expense?

Stephen

[Ocean1]

With any increase in the number of units built there's a point where the cost drops dramatically. It's the point at which you're no longer behaving like a cottage industry and start behaving like a production facility.

Glazing units, for example in NZ are made to order, whatever size you want. Takes a week or so, which is actually pretty good for what amounts to a jobing shop. Everywhere else in the world glazing units are manufactured as stock, standard sizes which cover 95% of all residential demand. Prices in NZ are also pretty good, for the service you get, but compared to a glazing unit factory the cost-to-market is fucking appalling. Like over twice the price.

So when I see what should be very promising developments along those lines for complete builds offering "up to 15%" cost savings I have to ask where the other 20% -30% is going...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...s-cost-savings

Just why the fuck is it that nobody seems able to deliver anything in the residential property market for anything vaguely resembling cost-to-market plus a reasonable margin? Seriously, why?

[Ocean1]

They were presented with a $230k variation at the end of build.

For variations to the original contract they agreed to at the time, presumably?

Or they'd have just laughed in the builders' face.

[BoristheBiter]

There's more to any build than what Lockwood quote, and the number of people who've gone bankrupt in the last 2 years trying to build here based on a spec home builder's quote is phenomenal. One couple we know have just divorced and managed to sell an $810k build for $665k. They were quoted $580k. They were presented with a $230k variation at the end of build.

So now you have moved the goal posts as, if you look above, we were talking building costs.
But to carry on with your line i think you must live in the most expensive part of NZ and that couple must be the dumbest.

But then I know people that have changed what they want in their so many times it has blown the budget out the window then cry that it cost them so much and I have seen builders try and charge extra for doing what they had quoted for in the first place and i have seen people do all the work themselves and get a massive house for less than what a spec house would have cost.

Like you say, it's not rocket science, and if you are being charged what you posted then I would be saying "fuck you" to Greytown and move

Like all investments you have to do your homework, some people get stung as they think they know it all and others get a bargain.

[James Deuce]

For variations to the original contract they agreed to at the time, presumably?

Or they'd have just laughed in the builders' face.

The spec builders make you sign a contract at the start of the process saying you'll accept responsibility for variations submitted at the end of the process. The only spec builder without this clause in their contract is Platinum Homes. Interestingly, they all make you pay $2-$3k to purchase this contract. They call it a deposit. In reality it is the salesperson's commission.