Ye old whinging students?

[noobi]

yes i would much prefer to pay for students than doley's.
Could you imagine the uproar if they stop benefit payments?

I think it has to come down to what course you are wanting to do as to whether or not you can get funded for it so we don't end up paying for things like that sunday golf degree that cam up a few years back.
Also make sure it is performance based so if the student is just thick and can't pass, then the funds aren't there.

I have no problem paying for training or loaning out the money to do so but it has to be reasonable and at the moment it isn't.

At Auckland uni, if you fail a core class, you need to repeat it pretty simple really, and this is also tied in to what was the student loan agreement. Something like, pass half your classes or you dont qualify for assistance any more.
I could care less about the whinging communication majors, but when a degree in medicine is a minimum of 7 years, law is 5. I think limiting allowance to 4 years isn't really the right thing to do. Especially as the work load really ramps up toward the end of a degree, getting a job is all well and good, but when people are struggling to find work any way, how does that pan out for a un qualified student?

Increasing the rate from 10 to 12% doesn't really bother me.

[scott411]

At Auckland uni, if you fail a core class, you need to repeat it pretty simple really, and this is also tied in to what was the student loan agreement. Something like, pass half your classes or you dont qualify for assistance any more.
I could care less about the whinging communication majors, but when a degree in medicine is a minimum of 7 years, law is 5. I think limiting allowance to 4 years isn't really the right thing to do. Especially as the work load really ramps up toward the end of a degree, getting a job is all well and good, but when people are struggling to find work any way, how does that pan out for a un qualified student?

Increasing the rate from 10 to 12% doesn't really bother me.

I agree with you on that bit Dale, I think there should be a few exceptions to the 4 year rule for Medicine, i dont really know about law those, i have never heard of anyone complaining about not being able to fin da lawyer,

their are professional students that live off this and need to get in the real world, you can not choose to be not in the workforce for ever,

I dont think the students have a bad deal as it is, so next time throw some rocks at those guys in the front row, or maybe just some gas gas parts that have fallen off you ones

[BoristheBiter]

At Auckland uni, if you fail a core class, you need to repeat it pretty simple really, and this is also tied in to what was the student loan agreement. Something like, pass half your classes or you dont qualify for assistance any more.
I could care less about the whinging communication majors, but when a degree in medicine is a minimum of 7 years, law is 5. I think limiting allowance to 4 years isn't really the right thing to do. Especially as the work load really ramps up toward the end of a degree, getting a job is all well and good, but when people are struggling to find work any way, how does that pan out for a un qualified student?

Increasing the rate from 10 to 12% doesn't really bother me.

can't disagree really.
If it came down to it would you become a doctor if the government paid it fully but then after you had qualified you were bonded for 10years to work in a NZ hospital?

If not then you pay your own way. I couldn't see it being fairer than that, after all how much do doctors make a year?

[noobi]

can't disagree really.
If it came down to it would you become a doctor if the government paid it fully but then after you had qualified you were bonded for 10years to work in a NZ hospital?

If not then you pay your own way. I couldn't see it being fairer than that, after all how much do doctors make a year?

Having friends who are doing medicine, the work load is enormous, I find it difficult enough juggling engineering with little amounts of part time work. So if there was a scheme in place for people from lower income families to 'tie' themselves to working in this country in exchange for a 'free lunch',like you say, then I think that would provide better opportunities for those who need it. Obviously it should only apply to certain types of tertiary education, as there is no shortage of PhD medieval literature graduates.

From my point of view, knowing how much better the engineering opportunities are in other countries, I probably wouldn't want to tie myself into such a scheme unless that was the last resort. Which is what the allowance scheme is supposed be, not a free ride, but a last resort for those who need it.

Scott, I can get kawasaki parts cheaper you know

[Asher]

At Auckland uni, if you fail a core class, you need to repeat it pretty simple really, and this is also tied in to what was the student loan agreement. Something like, pass half your classes or you dont qualify for assistance any more.
I could care less about the whinging communication majors, but when a degree in medicine is a minimum of 7 years, law is 5. I think limiting allowance to 4 years isn't really the right thing to do. Especially as the work load really ramps up toward the end of a degree, getting a job is all well and good, but when people are struggling to find work any way, how does that pan out for a un qualified student?

On the student loan form it asks you if you past more than X number of papers during the last semester, if you havent they wont approve you.
They also only entitle you to a certain number of weeks worth of student loans

[BoristheBiter]

Having friends who are doing medicine, the work load is enormous, I find it difficult enough juggling engineering with little amounts of part time work. So if there was a scheme in place for people from lower income families to 'tie' themselves to working in this country in exchange for a 'free lunch',like you say, then I think that would provide better opportunities for those who need it. Obviously it should only apply to certain types of tertiary education, as there is no shortage of PhD medieval literature graduates.

From my point of view, knowing how much better the engineering opportunities are in other countries, I probably wouldn't want to tie myself into such a scheme unless that was the last resort. Which is what the allowance scheme is supposed be, not a free ride, but a last resort for those who need it.

I wouldn't have minded being tied into a NZ company, or government, if it meant that I didn't have to work and could study full time.
I hear what you are saying in regards to overseas as when I went back to Engineering while in the UK I had my pick of jobs, all because of my NZ qualification.

Not all of them paid well.

[porky]

In round figures 80% of the entire education budget per year is funnelled into the tertiary sector.....so that leaves 20% for the primary, int and secondary schools

Given that the tertiary sector represents only 10% of those being educated.......i can see what the Govt is trying to cut back on


Pity that this huge pool of cash is being directed towards quals that only have a "learn to learn " value as apposed to "other quals" that form a significant contribution to a prof career and those bitching the most seem to fall into the first catagory.
Secondly we seem to train more than we need and a large number of those leaving these shores are because we dont have sufficient grad placements..... a critical next step for those to gain their proffessional component of their training. In addition to this, those that do bugger off have cost the tax payer more than they have individually contributed towards their education......what they owe in student loans is peanuts in comparison to what the rest of NZ has allready invested in them.
Yup locking into a return of service in lieu of paying back a huge debt is an awesome concept......but as most govt depts are run by absolute morons.....many who have emigrated here....such a scheme would probably cost the tax payer squillions of dollars implemententing and go tits up before any student had completed the ROS ..... but yes i would have happily signed up for such a programme if it existed.

[bogan]

I agree with you on that bit Dale, I think there should be a few exceptions to the 4 year rule for Medicine, i dont really know about law those, i have never heard of anyone complaining about not being able to fin da lawyer,

their are professional students that live off this and need to get in the real world, you can not choose to be not in the workforce for ever,

I dont think the students have a bad deal as it is, so next time throw some rocks at those guys in the front row, or maybe just some gas gas parts that have fallen off you ones

They do, and they are called recognised long courses. http://www.tec.govt.nz/Funding/Stude...ng-Programmes/ Medicine looks like it gets an extra 50-100 weeks.

[mashman]

In a confused way they have a point and I have some sympathy for their view of their apparent predicament!

They (the students) have been used and exploited by unscrupulous politicians with no other interest except their own political survival.

I don't blame them for falling for that shit but that's as far as my sympathies go!

The only thing you get for nothing in this world ... is nothing!

Anything you get for free means someone else is going to have to pay for it!

Interest free loans for education means taxpayers are supporting/subsidising these loans and IMHO they should have a time limit on them.

Unfortunately unrealistic expectations have been built in for short term returns like buying the student vote and the student is the victim!

Now as the political and "orthodox" financial noose tightens the politicians cant sustain the bribe, they call the debt in and the result is chaos!

The politicians benefit from the chaos by blaming the "greedy" students because this draws the attention away from themselves the creators of the problem!

The media will act in accordance and allow the students to be exposed as greedy on TV and in the papers just as is happening right now!

The electorate will become polarised by this, "A" and "B" will be at war for the benefit of "C" where "C" is the collective "parliament" of the day!

It's the oldest political ploy in the book, they are all part of it and they and the banks are the only ones that will ultimately benefit from it!

The students are simply pawns in the game but right or wrong "they" and the "taxpayers" will carry the scars of this folly forever!

It doesn't have to be like this but it will stay this way until the "electorate as a whole" wakes up and changes the financial system from "social debt" to "Social Credit".

Education (among other essential public services) will then be free and affordable again based upon gross national product. (GNP)

I.E. production of goods and services the real wealth of the nation, rather than borrowing intrest bearing fiat money based on nothing from private banks! (social debt)

It is the man made and controlled "Social Debt" system that is currently fucking the world and only man can change that by changing it to "Social Credit" system to reverse the mounting debt cycle.

Change the question from "are the students just winging"? to ... "why are the students winging"? and ask "who benefits from it"?

Who paid for free education when education was free? Because it really wasn't free was it? Could it have been, erm, no hang on, wait a minute that can't be right, was it the tax payers that paid for free education when education was free? Oh how I lolly... I guess we have to create debt from somewhere other than thin air.

[Robert Taylor]

Who paid for free education when education was free? Because it really wasn't free was it? Could it have been, erm, no hang on, wait a minute that can't be right, was it the tax payers that paid for free education when education was free? Oh how I lolly... I guess we have to create debt from somewhere other than thin air.

It does seem that to some degree we are tarred with the same brush as the Greeks. The reality is that like most Governments ( for myriad reasons ) we are up to our eyeballs in debt. THERE IS NO MONEY. Everyone has to tighten their belts, including students. Much of where I have got to has been through sheer hard work and no handouts, its a concept that a few more should try.

[mashman]

It does seem that to some degree we are tarred with the same brush as the Greeks. The reality is that like most Governments ( for myriad reasons ) we are up to our eyeballs in debt. THERE IS NO MONEY. Everyone has to tighten their belts, including students. Much of where I have got to has been through sheer hard work and no handouts, its a concept that a few more should try.

How long has it been since you were at Uni? (15 odd years ago) Me, I raised a kid, and helped support a g/f at Uni through part time work whilst doing my degree but I couldn't do that today. It costs too much money and it pisses me off that there will be people in a similar position i.e. that want to go to Uni but can't afford it because it is too expensive a thing to accomplish. Every basic "essential" has gone up in price, food, rent, books, travel, fees etc... I wouldn't mind if the $43 million being saved was going to do some good, but it isn't. Sure there's noise about putting the money back into the education system in order to raise the standards of the educator, but how do you accomplish that where every other govt has failed? I know where some of the money is going to go, but that shouldn't cost more than $4 million and whilst it COULD indicate the need for educator training, there are no noises as to how the educators will be brought up to speed so to speak. It's a false economy and will put more "stress" on to some teachers... the last thing I want to see are stressed teachers and a lack of teaching continuity. For me this policy offers no advantage to joe public. Limiting the support for 4 years rules out a HUGE portion of the population and drags us even further into an educational class system, benefiting the few.

If there's no money, then surely the sensible thing to do is to reverse the tax cuts that are obviously causing the country pain... but that's be back tracking on an election "promise" and the majority just aren't worthy of that "support" it would seem, even if it goes towards crippling the economy.

[steve_t]

So, what's this about again? Student complaining because student allowances are getting restricted to 4 years? Back in my day, student loans weren't even interest-free. I think it was about 8% interest that accumulated. What's wrong with these students getting loans instead of allowances? I guess the cost of living has gone up substantially. How much can you get via the student loan scheme these days?

[Brian d marge]

without going into it all again ,

in a nut shell , its an American form of economics which is pushed upon un by our partnership with IMF world bank etc , privatize state institutions .So when the new right got in back in the day , this is what they did , and to give them credit they have stuck to their guns ( ideals )

One thing I noticed when I returned to NZ for a break last month , were the amount of people with teeth missing , and bad dental care and ( anecdotally) the lack of people in the 25 to 35 age group but that was just my observations

IF you treat education as a benefit to society ( an educated society causes a whole heap less problems , health , crime etc ) then education should be subsidized ..

if you use the individualistic model , ( which the new right love to push , we are all islands and can only get somewhere by our own hard work ,,,, which is rubbish,, as we ALL had some sort of help ) then the individual should pay , and be able to pay when ( if ~) they get the high paying job ( slavery anyone?)

I was at the coal face when student loan came out , the then MP David Carter told me ( and I agree) that one should contribute towards the cost of ones education back then for engineering that worked out to 1250 a year plus book costs of 1 000 x 4

Then they added living costs .........


a 35k debt before you even start life ,,,yeah right

then we have those who recieved their education before the loans , and charging market rates, and those after who now #owe 35k # no dont get me wrong those , for example , who did an engineering degree worked friggen hard to get it , or were booksmart and just aced the exams . Time for a second job , no way ,,,not enough hours in the day to get the course work done , let alone work!

there were some school holidays where you could pick up some living money doing some form of dead end job , you couldnt save enough to make a dent in your living costs though,

Stephen

Scam to the max , lied to , cheated and saddled with a huge debt ,,,great way to start.

[noobi]

So, what's this about again? Student complaining because student allowances are getting restricted to 4 years? Back in my day, student loans weren't even interest-free. I think it was about 8% interest that accumulated. What's wrong with these students getting loans instead of allowances? I guess the cost of living has gone up substantially. How much can you get via the student loan scheme these days?

You can borrow up to $172/week in living costs if you dont qualify for allowance, ie your parents earn more than 90k combined.
If your parents combined earnings is less than 90k, then you can claim an allowance which at its max is around 220/week iirc.
There are other things that can affect your eligibility for the allowance, brothers and sisters which also study, living away from home, having a parent out of your life. You need to pay back the living costs, the allowance works like the dole. Also, both these schemes only pay out during the time your study, ~9 months of the year.
My loan is up to 17k atm, ill be lucky if its less than 40k by the time im finished.

[schrodingers cat]

The 'Education Industry' was a brilliant scam. Reduce unemployment by keeping people busy with basket weaving courses and give lots of lovely middle class people cushy jobs helping young people become over educated with unrealistic expectations of the own worth and value in the workplace.

Blood, dirt and shit people. Thats where the 'real' money is produced. The rest is just churn.