New Zealand army - no weapons no ammo.

[Storm]

That'll fix the problem no worries. Well done for his mate saving him money and keeping his pride intact

[Wolf]

haha, good effort. Wonder how much 500 rounds cost him, probably $6.99 at k-mart, lol.

Probably. Even if he bought the dearest bullets it would have cost less than the "Accurizing" - ever seen some of the shit they show in gun magazines - compensators, barrel weights etc (on "combat" firearms, FFS, not target pistols)?

[TwoSeven]

Umm wrong again...this is the same (and only) method used by competition and Olympic shooters to win gold medals. You don't "hope" to hit the centre, you "know" you will because you did last time and the time before that, etc. This confidence comes from years of practice eliminating and adjusting for all the unknown variables until you can successfully duplicate all the conditions that result in a hit. Hell if it was easy everyone would be doing it!! Just because you don't understand the principle does not mean it can't be done.

Still disagree. Your taking a pot shot.

The time honored technique for lining a scope up (be it on a rifle, or bow or anything else) is to take a 'pot shot' at your aiming point. You can either then adjust your aim in one of two ways.

1) A target shooter will adjust the virtical and horizontal position of the scope, given the same aiming point, so that the rifle eventually points at the target. They keep using their aim point and gradually bring the fired rounds onto the target by adjusting the scope.

2) A military shooter/hunter has pre calibrated their weapon for a set range (usually in the same way as the target shooter). They know the round will hit their aiming point within that range. If the round misses, they then move the aiming point until the round hits the target (this saves adjustment of the weapon) - its how I was tought to do it.

There is no 'practice' involved, and there is no special skill. Just take a pot shot and work out what to do next. The only thing that makes target shooting hard, is when you have to stand up and hold the weapon steady to get an accurate grouping.

A round in a high velocity weapon is designed so that for a period of time it is minimally affected by gravity. When this happens you get a flat trajectory for the period of time that occurs (this is how tank guns work as well). Target shooters and military shooters always work within this range (the L85 will be about 400yards and will take about .4 of a second to get there).

There is a sport where parabolic shooting is involved. This requires a good bit of math (or use of pre-calculated tables called 'drop charts'). This is where the distance the round must travel is greater than the flat trajectory range (thus you get a parabolic curve on the trajectory). When you shoot like this, you use the same scope calibration technique in 1) above, but you use pre-calculated tables to make the adjustments to the scope. Again, its not difficult and requires little practice. Worst thing you'd have problems with it factoring the effect of elevation, but even that can be pre-calculated into charts (or a good PDA program).

Sniper shooting in the military (in UK and US) uses a 2 man team (not sure about NZ). The reason is that the shooter uses a low powered scope and cannot see where the round went. That means, they cannot adjust their scope as in point 1) above. The 2nd man uses a high powered lense (long range optic and range finder) and observes the fall of the round, they then give the details to the shooter who makes the adjustment - this is who BVR shooting is done. I've not been shown the exact training procedure, but its something along those lines. If they are not doing long distance work, then its likely they'll both be shooting rather than one spotting.

Calculating windage is the only thing I can see where you would need some degree of practice, basically you need to observe several points along the trajectory (such as grass) and note how it bends, you then use the beufort scale (or something similar) to get an idea. You'd have to practice to some degree because its the only way you could take into consideration accurate effect vs calculated effect. Normally for windage, you'd average out all the readings across the trajectory and use that on a pre-calculate chart.


The only way I can see you would require a heck of a lot of practice is if you were taking shortcuts for some reason or wanted to get a feel for the weapon and its balistic characteristics so you could guestimate more accurately.

[Lou Girardin]

A round in a high velocity weapon is designed so that for a period of time it is minimally affected by gravity. When this happens you get a flat trajectory for the period of time that occurs (this is how tank guns work as well). Target shooters and military shooters always work within this range (the L85 will be about 400yards and will take about .4 of a second to get there).

It depends how you define 'flat'. If you mean a trajectory within an inch or two of the sight line - true. But no ballistic projectile is truly flat, as in a laser beam.

[jrandom]

no ballistic projectile is truly flat

sure it is, if it happens to accelerate to more than 11.2 km/s before it leaves the barrel.

[Wolf]

Still disagree. Your taking a pot shot.

A "potshot" is one taken at an easy target as by a pothunter (someone who hunts for food, not sport). It is not competition-level shooting. Or shooting at a difficult target (small target at long range or fast-moving target). From the point of view of one who has hunted and done target shooting, I can testify there is a world of difference.

When hunting, I aim the sights into the middle of a vital area, usually quickly as the game may move any moment. We're talking rabbits and possums, here - not large but certainly not at fantastic ranges. The body/head of the target at the range I am talking is clearly larger than my sight picture so I put the sights somewhere in the middle of that mass and pull the trigger, trusting that at that range the bullet is not going to deviate far from that rough mark - it is going to plow into something fairly vital - brains if I'm aiming vaguely between the eyes, heart and/or lungs if I'm aiming at the chest area.

That is a "potshot". I am not trying to hit a rabbit at 1.5km (or even 800m), I am trying to get a bullet into a roughly 10cm x 15cm oval of vital organs at a range of several metres - it does not require a lot of effort unless the bugger is running very fast at a reasonable distance and then you start getting into "leading" the target.

And that's just with iron sights which are bulky fuckers. Cross hairs are skinnier, giving you a magnified view of the target area with a couple of thin lines dancing around in it, but as long as you put a bit of lead into that area, you should stop the bugger.

The time honored technique for lining a scope up (be it on a rifle, or bow or anything else) is to take a 'pot shot' at your aiming point. You can either then adjust your aim in one of two ways.

Incorrect.

You aim at the target from a stable position, usually a bench rest for calibrating a weapon's sights, using one of the sight pictures in my above post for iron sights or centring the crosshairs for a scope. Bow sights are slightly different but the same principle applies.

You then fire and note where the bullet lands, you then adjust the sights accordingly until such time as the bullets constantly land in the target zone while the weapon is held steady and the sight picture is how you like it.

Each time, you fire considered aimed shots at a target of the appropriate type and size, at the appropriate range.

This achieved, your weapon is now "sighted in" and ready to be used for whatever purpose you have in mind for it.

1) A target shooter will adjust the virtical and horizontal position of the scope, given the same aiming point, so that the rifle eventually points at the target. They keep using their aim point and gradually bring the fired rounds onto the target by adjusting the scope.

This is done during the sighting-in period. During a match, the sights should not need to be adjusted and the competition does not allow time for adjusting sights.

When shooting, the weapon is aimed according to whatever sight picture the shooter prefers (I'm a "6 o'clock" man, myself) and fired.

There is no 'practice' involved, and there is no special skill. Just take a pot shot and work out what to do next. The only thing that makes target shooting hard, is when you have to stand up and hold the weapon steady to get an accurate grouping.

The only way I can see you would require a heck of a lot of practice is if you were taking shortcuts for some reason or wanted to get a feel for the weapon and its balistic characteristics so you could guestimate more accurately.

I would be most interested in seeing how you stack up on a target range, seeing as how you believe there is no skill involved and no need to practise. I'll pit my aiming against your guesstimates any day and we'll see who gets the higher number of points. As standing and holding the gun steady is the difficult bit, we can alleviate this by shooting prone.

In the middle of that tiny black circle at the centre of the target is the "10 Ring" - worth 10 points. Do not let the big pictures above fool you, the sight picture consist of a tiny block with a notch in it, a tiny front blade and a tiny black circle which is the target centre.

You fire ten shots at the target. As the middle is worth 10 points, basic maths gives a maximum of 100 points.

In order to compete at Olympic level you have to be able to shoot a 98 point average or better consistently throughout the competition - i.e. you can hit the nine ring twice or the 8 ring once. If you drop behind the other competitors, you will lose.

You do not achieve 98-point averages by "guesstimating" and there is a lot of difference between hitting that tiny circle 8 or 9 times out of 10 and getting a bullet into the "vital" area of a rabbit (a "potshot"). Likewise, long range sniper shooting, shooting moving targets and other difficult shots do not fall into the category of "potshots".

And there are no shortcuts. And any "shortcut" that requires "a lot of practice" is not a "shortcut anyway.

[TwoSeven]

AYou then fire and note where the bullet lands, you then adjust the sights accordingly until such time as the bullets constantly land in the target zone while the weapon is held steady and the sight picture is how you like it.

A pot shot is a term used to mean an amount of guessing is done. It comes from the term "pot luck". Nothing to do with any other meaning you have put on it as far as I know.

The initial calibration shot anyone makes - is called a pot shot because they have to guess to some degree (unless you are already set up). Once the round has landed, you can then callibrate for accuracy and remove the guess.

I've done enough shooting to be able to fire a group and calibrate a sight. It really doesnt take much skill unless you've no idea what your doing.

Olympic shooting as far as I have seen is only about shooting a tight grouping and being able to afford the equipment the buggers use It comes down to the ability to hold the weapon stable (you'll note that most competitions are done standing), I cant do this because of RSI (I shake too much) - have to kneel or go prone. It would be impossible for me to do the 300m rifle, i'd be waving the rifle all over the place even the target being a meter across is of no use. I'd have the people behind me diving for cover.

To get back on track, if someone was shooting without any aids, then I'd say they are pretty good if they are hitting stuff at 100m+ especially if its a 10 cent piece, but as soon as you start bunging on all the optional equipment, then there really is no skill in it. Which brings back the other point I made, in that I question anyone who is claiming they are capable of removing a knats bollux at 300m+ without the use of a tripod and/or sights. The 10 point is 100mm across and I think from memory they use a low power sight. Its certainly not a dime.

[scumdog]

This is why you can't use traffic laser at these ranges.

Of course you can, just hold it aimed at about where you think the grille is (like modern cars have grilles?) until you get a tone letting you know you have a steady reading. (probably by then the car will be only 400 metres away).

[Lou Girardin]

sure it is, if it happens to accelerate to more than 11.2 km/s before it leaves the barrel.

And this ballistic projectile is a...................................?

[jrandom]

And this ballistic projectile is a...................................?

er

que?

'really fast-moving one'?

not quite sure what your getting at old chap.

[Lou Girardin]

Of course you can, just hold it aimed at about where you think the grille is (like modern cars have grilles?) until you get a tone letting you know you have a steady reading. (probably by then the car will be only 400 metres away).

Meanwhile the beam is waving around like Aunt Fanny's knickers and you get a reading off the car alongside.
Close enough?

[Lou Girardin]

er

que?

'really fast-moving one'?

not quite sure what your getting at old chap.

Improve my education, tell me what ballistic projectile fired from a barrel reaches 11.2 km/sec.

[scumdog]

Meanwhile the beam is waving around like Aunt Fanny's knickers and you get a reading off the car alongside.
Close enough?

Uh, I should have clarified this, I'm talking about the South Island here (not overcrowded Jaffland) and a single vehicle on one of our nice flat straights.

[jrandom]

Improve my education, tell me what ballistic projectile fired from a barrel reaches 11.2 km/sec.

a theoretical one, old bean.

my gedankenexperiment trumps your assertion.

you owe the oracle one pint of guinness and a test ride on a Road King.

[Lou Girardin]

a theoretical one, old bean.

my gedankenexperiment trumps your assertion.

you owe the oracle one pint of guinness and a test ride on a Road King.

A ballistic flight of fancy then.
Road King test rides - 15th Oct.