New Zealand army - no weapons no ammo.

[Pixie]

The last time I was shooting on a military range, there was very little time for one on one instruction. By the time 30 of you fire away your grouping rounds and adjust your sights to suit, You've expended a whole day.
Also, counting the rounds and relaying back the info is a very slow process.
Then take into account the need for handling live ammunition and all the safety aspects to be applied when live bullets are being fired. This usually begins with newletter announcements in base bullitins etc.
Learning to fire a weapon accurately on a shooting range is essential for a soldier, especially where his or her life may well depend on their accuracy for using that weapon. There is nothing more valuable than good old one on one tuition, this setup will provide for that.
It is essential for a soldier to learn how to lower and slow their breathing because the simple movement of your lungs inhaling, will cause a bullet to clean miss a target 300 yards away. With good technique and tuition, you would learn to hit that target every time. Be it firing from the Prone, Kneeling, Sitting or Standing positions.
Sounds to me like a good investment for the NZDF.

But don't be fooled, The NZDF will never do away with Live Firing Exercises.
The laser setup will provide for highly beneficial tuition trainings and weapon drills.

I have a mate who trains competition shooters.He maintains that a lot of the control can be taught without the need to fire the weapon.He has trained shooters to sight a target,close their eyes,and after 10 seconds with their eyes still closed,fire and score a bull.This being a standing shot.
Not only does breathing affect the shot but so does the pulsing pressure of the blood in the blood vessels.
That is why Beta blockers are a banned drug in shooting comps.The top world class shooters sometimes learn eastern techniques for controlling their heart beat.

[mstriumph]

... sandwiches, sunbloc, buckets & spades ----- we'll make a day of it .....

And don't forget the cousellors,incase we see something nasty

[Wolf]

So they are playing lazer strike for a living now.



Yep, if a virtual terrorist every appears down the end of a bowling lane. Kiwi troops will be trained to sort them out

Why dont they just download a copy of the americas army game, its cheaper.

Probably the cowards at the top of the "Chain of Command" have finally realised the risks involved in giving live weapons to people they treat like shit...

Bear in mind the Army is run by people who will never have to see battle - has been for a number of years - if we get involved in a war, the top brass stays home and sends the poor saps at the bottom out to die.

So you see, it doesn't matter what weapons they have or training they have - just as long as the Hofficers and' Gennelmun are safe and sound licking the arses of the gutless politicians who ordered the troops out in the first place.

Ultimately, at very top of the "Chain of Command" you have a politician of some description, be it a Prime Minister or President, who gets to posture and pose and rattle sabres saying "We is gonna kick your ass" (Umerkan politician with bad English and an inbred grin on his face) when in fact they are in no danger of being shot at, ever, and it is some body else who is going to do the actual "ass-kicking" and die in the process.

These politicians and the upper echelons of the armed forces sit back and talk of "acceptable losses" - which is easy to do when there's no chance of one of those losses being yourself and the acceptable losses are just numbers on paper, not even names, let alone faces.

I could never join the military - I have way too much self respect to be ordered about by those that haven't got the balls to do what they're ordering you to do. And any order ultimately comes from the top of the chain of command.

[Hitcher]

going to go with.... huh??

prob should know the acronym but all thinked out at the mo

Troop Exercises Without Troops...

[ghost]

Troop Exercises Without Troops...

Tactical Exercise Without Troops, about as effective as NEWD (Night Exercise without Darkness)(a whole new post)

[Wolf]

Tactical Exercise Without Troops, about as effective as NEWD (Night Exercise without Darkness)(a whole new post)

Thank you for highlighting the other reason I'd never join the military. Ever noticed that the Army is supposed to follow a modified version of the NZ Firearms Code and yet their Rifle Drill breaks two of the most important safety rules - "Treat every firearm as if loaded" and "Always point your firearm in a safe direction". Instead they slam the stocks into the ground and wave the rifles all over the place. There're no way I'd let most soldiers touch any of my weapons as they are trained to be careless.

[sAsLEX]

Thank you for highlighting the other reason I'd never join the military. Ever noticed that the Army is supposed to follow a modified version of the NZ Firearms Code and yet their Rifle Drill breaks two of the most important safety rules - "Treat every firearm as if loaded" and "Always point your firearm in a safe direction". Instead they slam the stocks into the ground and wave the rifles all over the place. There're no way I'd let most soldiers touch any of my weapons as they are trained to be careless.

on the range you did anything like that you would be out of there so fast with the range warden chasing you it wouldnt be funny. With live rounds in the breach defence personell are trained to treat them with the utmost respect and that they will go off at anytime so treat them as loaded, laser rule or something it is.

so you in the army you seem to know an awful lot about what they do?

[crazylittleshit]

I didn't realise bullets cost so much?????????

[Hoon]

Cool!! More new toys for the Army. Go Aunty Helen!!

My opinion might be slightly skewed but I'm all for spending money on defence. This day an age you need a modern Army, not just for home defence but also international assistance. If we are to deploy alongside Aussie\UK\USA, we need to be up with the play.

I've used the same computerized range they have at Holdsworthy base in Aus. Its basically a movie screen with 12 lanes, each with a Steyr modified with sensors and an air pressure line to simulate firing/recoil. You can do individual shoots (i.e. normal firing range stuff) or a scenario where the whole screen displays what you would see as you patrol along (i.e. Time Crisis style).

Other than shooting, the benefits I saw were improvements in cost (ammo isn't cheap), manpower (don't need various safety staff everywhere as you do with live rounds) and time (able to reset/rewind/replay easily). Ohh and also you don't have to walk anywhere

Also its good training for the commander who has to control his fire teams. The simulator allows access to far more scenarios than you could get chasing an enemy party across Waiouru and the replay/stats facility allows some good analysis afterwards.

However it is still no substitute for other training methods (i.e. live range fire, live Battle Handling Exs, blank fire, IWESS laser strike harnesses etc) merely just compliments them.

[Wolf]

on the range you did anything like that you would be out of there so fast with the range warden chasing you it wouldnt be funny. With live rounds in the breach defence personell are trained to treat them with the utmost respect and that they will go off at anytime so treat them as loaded, laser rule or something it is.

so you in the army you seem to know an awful lot about what they do?

Friends and family in the Army. Dad used to tell of how they would loosen the retaining bolts and screws on their SMLEs so that when they were doing their rifle drill, each time they slapped the stock of the rifle the bits rattled, creating a really loud CRACK. They used to tighten them back up again before shooting with them.

Thing is, there should not be two standards of behaviour for on and off the range. The law says treat all firearms as if loaded and keep them pointed in a same direction at all times - not "when you are at the shooting area" or "only when you're really sure its loaded" - weapons safety is for all the time and the stupid pomp and ceremony of "Rifle Drill" breaches that and, in my mind, leaves the average soldier inadequately drilled in firearms safety.

By promoting unsafe behaviour, they are setting the stage for disaster. Enough people who have been well drilled in firearms safety have made "that one mistake", without giving firearms to people encouraged to "play" with them.

[k14]

Friends and family in the Army. Dad used to tell of how they would loosen the retaining bolts and screws on their SMLEs so that when they were doing their rifle drill, each time they slapped the stock of the rifle the bits rattled, creating a really loud CRACK. They used to tighten them back up again before shooting with them.

Thing is, there should not be two standards of behaviour for on and off the range. The law says treat all firearms as if loaded and keep them pointed in a same direction at all times - not "when you are at the shooting area" or "only when you're really sure its loaded" - weapons safety is for all the time and the stupid pomp and ceremony of "Rifle Drill" breaches that and, in my mind, leaves the average soldier inadequately drilled in firearms safety.

By promoting unsafe behaviour, they are setting the stage for disaster. Enough people who have been well drilled in firearms safety have made "that one mistake", without giving firearms to people encouraged to "play" with them.

So when they go to war are you saying they should also follow the firearm code, don't point a weapon at a person?? Yeah thats a really good call.

People like you really tick me off, would never go into a war situation for the freedom of others but don't think twice about the freedom we have these days.

[idb]

Privatisation is the answer!
I heard a headline (but not the article) on the radio last night that the Fijian gummint are rumoured to be looking at recruiting some Israeli mercenaries.
What a great idea!
Support private enterprise I say.

Have a contract with a mercenary army for "Just In Time Delivery" so that they will guarantee delivery of a defence solution within 12 hours should we experience an unauthorised extra-national encounter with malice within the sovereign borders of the New Zealand territorial...errr...borders.

Call for tenders and go through all the glossy brochures or, alternatively, let Google be our guide to security in a big, scary world. I'll bet a mercenary army could have a pretty whiz-bang website full of cool explosions and stuff.

We wouldn't have to worry about keeping up to date with training or weapons or maintaining expensive bases and NZ's whole defence could be managed by an MBA graduate with experience in contract management.
One less NZer lost to the brain drain.

[Lias]

On a semi related topic..

Anyone else in favour of bringing back compulsory national service? For the uninformed thats requiring every man and woman to serve a a period of time in the armed forces, generally 1-2 years during the 18-26 age range.

PS: Wolf is a hippy and would abolished the armfed forces and have us all singing Kumbaya when Indonesia invades

[Wolf]

So when they go to war are you saying they should also follow the firearm code, don't point a weapon at a person?? Yeah thats a really good call.

People like you really tick me off, would never go into a war situation for the freedom of others but don't think twice about the freedom we have these days.

Thank you. That is a lot more eloquent than the "Just shut up" that accompanied the bad rep you sent me. I gather you disagree with me so that qualifies you to make unfounded, incorrect assumptions about me.

If you get someone to read my post to you slowly, you would see that I said the Army is bound by a modified version of the arms code. That modified version, by the way, says something to the effect of "do not point a firearm at someone else unless you intend on shooting them." You will also note, if someone reads very slowly, that I was annoyed with their careless use of firearms in a parade-ground "Rifle Drill" situation.

Nowhere in my post did I say I would "never go into a war situation" - that was your own pathetic assumption and you then tried to claim I ticked you off.

I expressed an opinion on firearms safety, you made an inaccurate assumption and chose to get ticked off, you then chose to bad rep me and tell me to "shut up".

If I were a child, I would bad rep you in return but I'll leave that to you because reasonned discourse and debate is patently beyond your capacity - and I base that assumption on your actions.

[Hitcher]

I heard a headline (but not the article) on the radio last night that the Fijian gummint are rumoured to be looking at recruiting some Israeli mercenaries.
What a great idea!
Support private enterprise I say.

Fiji is probably one of the most militarised countries around. Three full infantry battalions -- two usually overseas on UN peacekeeping duties and one at home for training/reserve. The revenue generated from this -- all in US$ -- is a major contributor to the Fijian economy. Officers all trained at Duntroon, here and Sandhurst. Hard as nails with good kit and loads of recent combat experience. I wonder what possible use they could make of Israeli "mercenaries"...