New Zealand army - no weapons no ammo.

[Hoon]

Well, NZ is simply too big to be defended by about 500 people (about the sum total of effective combat capable troops there are here). So I think people need to get real and give up on the idea of 'defending' anything.

There aren't many peaceful countries in the world that have a big enough army to defend themselves all on their own. That's why we have alliances so that others will come in our time of need. However to be an effective member of any alliance you need to have something to bring to the table hence the NZ Army Modernisation plan.

As for scraping the Air Combat wing I might be biased but I'm kind of glad. Theres no point having a poorly equipped Air Force and Army so it makes sense to concentrate on one at the others expense. Now our Army has LAVs, LOVs, new helos, new high tech radios and Javelins and are now one of the best equipped Light/Mechanized Infantry in the world. As a result we are able to boost Australias Infantry strength by 25% and in return they can protect our skies.

[sAsLEX]

Now our Army has LAVs, LOVs, new helos, new high tech radios and Javelins and are now one of the best equipped Light/Mechanized Infantry in the world. As a result we are able to boost Australias Infantry strength by 25% and in return they can protect our skies.

umm from what I have heard the LOVs aint doing to shit hot at the mo, and the LAVs aint going to be much help where the old M113 or whatever the tracked one is called could get to places.

[TwoSeven]

The MOWAG lavs are actually pretty good for what they do. Just about every country uses them now. Its a standard light combat troop carrier - the alternative would have been a humvee which are currently undergoing issues

As for the javelins are being brought by all armies (raytheon is on a winner there).

I dont know whats meant by 'best equiped'. Just because you get some new toys doesnt mean all the other crap suddenly improves.

[sAsLEX]

the alternative would have been a humvee which are currently undergoing issues

As for the javelins are being brought by all armies (raytheon is on a winner there).

I dont know whats meant by 'best equiped'. Just because you get some new toys doesnt mean all the other crap suddenly improves.

oh and whos you source? I know mine is better than yours, alot better in fact but hey you know more than me , not really a place to discuss this.

opps thought you were talking about the LOVs, which the humve would of been an alternative to

[Hitcher]

As for scraping the Air Combat wing I might be biased but I'm kind of glad. Theres no point having a poorly equipped Air Force and Army so it makes sense to concentrate on one at the others expense. Now our Army has LAVs, LOVs, new helos, new high tech radios and Javelins and are now one of the best equipped Light/Mechanized Infantry in the world. As a result we are able to boost Australias Infantry strength by 25% and in return they can protect our skies.

When they scrapped the air combat wing, they should have scrapped the whole Air Farce. Warbirds has more teeth than the Royal New Zealand Aero Club -- how embarrassing is that? A couple of Orions and Hercs, 757s, and old helos, all of which are clapped out and obsolete in their current configurations does not a fighting force make. Every time they "deploy" overseas they have to get rescued. Tragic, but not as tragic as those pale blue uniforms.

OK the Army now has LAVs. Portaloos would be more use. They can't be easily deployed overseas and can't take much more than small-arms fire. Upgrading the M113 fleet would have made more sense. And I understand there are insufficient crew members for the available LAVs -- one-stripe corporals as vehicle commanders?

And even with the Javelins, the Army wouldn't last more than a couple of minutes against a moderate air attack.

New Zealand has a proud military history and we have a responsibility to defend ourselves and our region. I think it is sad that our armed forces have been eroded to a state where they're neither use nor ornament. They deserve better.

[SPman]

New Zealand has a proud military history and we have a responsibility to defend ourselves and our region. I think it is sad that our armed forces have been eroded to a state where they're neither use nor ornament. They deserve better.

this is 2005, isn't it?
Not 1938? ? ?

[idb]

this is 2005, isn't it?
Not 1938? ? ?

That's right, the Yellow Peril.
They are now pouring into the country as terrorists and no-one seems to care.
Hang on, that's tourists, hang on, maybe that's what Winston really meant in his letter to the Muslim community - "Turn over your tourists".
Hmmmmm, it all becomes clear.
It was just a big English-as-a-second-language misunderstanding.

[TwoSeven]

oh and whos you source? I know mine is better than yours, alot better in fact but hey you know more than me , not really a place to discuss this.

opps thought you were talking about the LOVs, which the humve would of been an alternative to

What ? - you are saying a light operation vehicle (ie. truck) is equiv. to a humvee (car) - sorry dude, the humvee (M998) is now a LAV (light armoured vehicle) - its been redesignated (M1114) and up-armoured. The unarmored version is being withdrawn and replaced with the MOWAG LAV (stryker). Other designations for specialist roles will continue.

I would have agreed with the statement if you were refering to the original M998


And I will only agree that NZ has a well equiped army when they announced their Fist/Idz/Land Warrier system

[Dafe]

I have a mate who trains competition shooters.He maintains that a lot of the control can be taught without the need to fire the weapon.He has trained shooters to sight a target,close their eyes,and after 10 seconds with their eyes still closed,fire and score a bull.This being a standing shot.
Not only does breathing affect the shot but so does the pulsing pressure of the blood in the blood vessels.
That is why Beta blockers are a banned drug in shooting comps.The top world class shooters sometimes learn eastern techniques for controlling their heart beat.

Thats fine, But you totally missed my point!
I don't care about competition shooters - or Olympic shooters!
I'm concerned about bringing the skill level of the average armed forces soldier up to speed. A typical non-commissioned ranked serviceman is not getting the same attention as a competition shooter are they? No, infact they're probably getting about five percent the amount of attention. With a system like the proposed put in place, you would hope that figure should rise from five percent to maybe thirty percent.

[Pixie]

Thats fine, But you totally missed my point!
I don't care about competition shooters - or Olympic shooters!
I'm concerned about bringing the skill level of the average armed forces soldier up to speed. A typical non-commissioned ranked serviceman is not getting the same attention as a competition shooter are they? No, infact they're probably getting about five percent the amount of attention. With a system like the proposed put in place, you would hope that figure should rise from five percent to maybe thirty percent.

I'm sceptical about the validity of simulated training.There is a big difference between having live ammunition fired at you as you try to hit a target than experiencing a watered down simulated version.Many of the deficencies the US uncovered recently have been due to going for the hi-tech route and forsaking the traditional.

[Dafe]

TwoSeven, I can't say that I agree much at all with your comments.
First of all.... You say NZ has about 500 combat ready troops. Well, The Airforce alone has 500 Toets qualified and ready personnel. I imagine the navy would have a few less and the army, even more.
The Airforce is not infact a joke. The airforce is a very heavily involved transportation service, providing essential NZ maritime surveillence, search & rescue, relief aid and tri-service air movements.
The New Zealand Defence Force is purposefully structured at present. It has been moulded around the Labour Partys plans to provide a service to assist our neighbouring allies should the need arise. Primarily a Political agenda.
Unfortunately, The Australian Govt strongly disagree with our structure because we are now hiding behind Australians rather than pulling our own weight right alongside as in previous ANZAC tradition. Hence the rapid decline in the relationships between Australia and NZ, and also US and NZ.
However, we are gaining popularity with Asian countries such as China as we are now aligning more and more stronger with the third world countries.
For Political reasons, It would be very unwise to merge any of the tri service forces as it would appear that we had created a police force as such, (eg Coastguard Service) as opposed to providing a Combat force ready to support our allie countries.

[Wolf]

I'm sceptical about the validity of simulated training.There is a big difference between having live ammunition fired at you as you try to hit a target than experiencing a watered down simulated version.Many of the deficencies the US uncovered recently have been due to going for the hi-tech route and forsaking the traditional.

Apparently the early SAS training was light cotton fatigues, fencing mask, air pistol and go out into the Malasian bush in two teams. As the fatigues didn't do a lot to protect from the lead pellet, they learned to keep out of sight pretty sharply.

[Dafe]

There aren't many peaceful countries in the world that have a big enough army to defend themselves all on their own. That's why we have alliances so that others will come in our time of need. However to be an effective member of any alliance you need to have something to bring to the table hence the NZ Army Modernisation plan.

As for scraping the Air Combat wing I might be biased but I'm kind of glad. Theres no point having a poorly equipped Air Force and Army so it makes sense to concentrate on one at the others expense. Now our Army has LAVs, LOVs, new helos, new high tech radios and Javelins and are now one of the best equipped Light/Mechanized Infantry in the world. As a result we are able to boost Australias Infantry strength by 25% and in return they can protect our skies.

Only problem is, Air Power is where the battle is fought and won when an invasion is on the cards. No LAV's gonna be of any use to you where invasions are concerned.
If China landed on your shores - You're toast!
Keeping China from your shores, You're still a free nation.

[Hitcher]

this is 2005, isn't it?
Not 1938? ? ?

There's certainly no pulling the wool over your eyes. I hope you didn't have to run a Google search to find out...

[sAsLEX]

What ? - you are saying a light operation vehicle (ie. truck) is equiv. to a humvee (car) - sorry dude, the humvee (M998) is now a LAV (light armoured vehicle) - its been redesignated (M1114) and up-armoured. The unarmored version is being withdrawn and replaced with the MOWAG LAV (stryker). Other designations for specialist roles will continue.

I would have agreed with the statement if you were refering to the original M998


And I will only agree that NZ has a well equiped army when they announced their Fist/Idz/Land Warrier system

well they are replacing the land rover whatr would you refer to them as?!?!?!

To acquire a range of light operational vehicles (LOV) to meet the New Zealand Army’s motorisation requirements. These include:
*

Military vehicles (MV). The MV fleet will consist of 321 vehicles in six variants to fulfil a new mobility requirement to operate in concert with, and to support the light armoured vehicle. The MV fleet will consist of:

*

13 special operations variants,
*

122 command and control variants,
*

95 general service variants,
*

68 crew served weapon carrier variants,
*

15 shelter carrier variants, and
*

8 ambulance variants.

*

Of these, 23 command and control, and 37 crew served weapon variants will have armour protection.

The existing Landrover fleet will be progressively withdrawn from service as the MV enters service.

so as I was saying they are an equiv to humvees, which were an option instead of these, but we didnt get them as this would require closer relations to the states and we know some people dont want that.

Hence we got the Pinzgauer military vehicles.

Now you can talk all you like but where did you get your info?!