New Zealand army - no weapons no ammo.

[Lou Girardin]

Its the american way though. Empty as much and as many munitions into an area and you will kill something eventually.

Currently it's running at 250,000 rounds of 5.56, 7.62 and .50 cal per dead insurgent in Iraq. And a lot of those 'insurgents' will be innocent civvies.
The Merkins are having to buy ammo from the Israelis because their industry's can't cope.

[Lou Girardin]

Weapons are deadly in the hands of American soldiers, too - usually deadly against each other and allies, tho'...

There's the old WW2 saying,
When the Brits bomb, the Germans duck.
When the Germans bomb, the Brits duck.
When the Yanks bomb everyone ducks.

[TwoSeven]

I have a problem with anyone who claims they can hit a coin with a rifle of any kind at more than 150 meters. Even if they used a scope and tri-pod, it would still be pretty good going. A dime spread at an olympics at that range would certainly be worthy of a medal to my mind.

As an experiment, put a coin on the ground by a power pole and walk back 3 poles distance - thats roughly 150 meters. When I tried, I could just see a fleck of silver where I knew I left it. Certainly would be able to hit it without using a scope and tripod.

When I walked back 800 yards (getting closer to a klick) which is a heck of a lot of lamp posts, the person that was walking past what I now thought was about the right power pole, was only about 6" high. It would certainly require the use of a scope and tripod.

Most sniper rifles have a max range of about 800 to 900 meters, with the heavy caliber ones having a max range of about 1100m and I am told the technique is to rapid fire in order to 'hopefully' hit the target.

Once you use a scope and tripod it really doesnt matter what kind of rifle it is, so long as the rounds velocity is higher than 900m/s (it will have a flat trajectory over 1km) meaning you'll hit the target so long as there is little wind and your scope is calibrated correctly.

[Sniper]

I have a problem with anyone who claims they can hit a coin with a rifle of any kind at more than 150 meters. Even if they used a scope and tri-pod, it would still be pretty good going. A dime spread at an olympics at that range would certainly be worthy of a medal to my mind.

As an experiment, put a coin on the ground by a power pole and walk back 3 poles distance - thats roughly 150 meters. When I tried, I could just see a fleck of silver where I knew I left it. Certainly would be able to hit it without using a scope and tripod. I have also never heard of the term "rapid fire". Since when is a sniper meant to fire x amount of rounds to hopefully get his target? May as well just be infantry then. As a sniper the motto is "One shot, one kill". I prefer, "If you run, you will only die tired"

When I walked back 800 yards (getting closer to a klick) which is a heck of a lot of lamp posts, the person that was walking past what I now thought was about the right power pole, was only about 6" high. It would certainly require the use of a scope and tripod.

Most sniper rifles have a max range of about 800 to 900 meters, with the heavy caliber ones having a max range of about 1100m and I am told the technique is to rapid fire in order to 'hopefully' hit the target.

Once you use a scope and tripod it really doesnt matter what kind of rifle it is, so long as the rounds velocity is higher than 900m/s (it will have a flat trajectory over 1km) meaning you'll hit the target so long as there is little wind and your scope is calibrated correctly.

Twoseven, you are right and wrong in both respects. It takes a hell of a lot of skill and patience to be a sniper. It is VERY possible to hit a coin at 150m with no scope. It just takes practise. It is very possible to hit a moving target at 500m with the right load and practice and also without a tripod but using a standing shot.

As for your comment saying most sniper rifles have a max range of 800 to 900 meters you are wrong. The range of the rifle depends entirely on the load you are carrying. A standard hunting round will only travel that distance but with a custom loaded .308, I know someone who could take the tip of your ear off at 1 click. I also know that I was trained with my own 82 to take out an engine block in a vehicle at 1500m and I have heard of a confirmed kill at 1800m.

It comes down to skill and there is a hell of alot more to worry about than scope sighting and wind. What about heat currents, objects, bullet drop off or the targets movement?

Now remember, what I said all involves a hell of alot of practice and a bucket load of bullets fired.

[Wolf]

Full bore competition with a .308 target rifle over 1 km, the target is around 8' x 4' or 2400 x 1200mm - according to a colleague that competes in said events. Not sure on the sizes of the rings. I suppose I could google it, but meh!

What I hate is when someone has already demonstrated how accurate his rifle is by consistently hitting a small target over a decent range and then feel the "need" to show off by obliterating (there can be no other term when a 7mm Magnum round hits such a "target") a King Fisher (not the smallest of birds) at around half that range. I saw no fucking point in it, when I witnessed it. And the bugger had the gall to be fucked off when I fired my rifle as he was about to blow away said King Fisher's mate. (Second King Fisher fucked off like it was rocket-propelled - mind you, first time I fired the Mosin-Nagant rifle, I felt like running away from the noise as well, it made Ken's L1A1 sound quiet.)

[scumdog]

You mean carrying it from the car to the range mound or chasing deer across the countryside?

Dime spread groups at 800 yards is utter bullshit even for a fullbore match rifle with match grade ammo on a bench with no wind. The '10' ring on an 800 yard target is 116mm wide!

What I was trying to say in a more tactful way.

And hitting something small ONCE at long range doesn't count, doing it consistantly does.

BTW My best group ever was 3/4" at 100 yards, it took some doing.
A dime is smaller than that and I'd hate to think how the hell you are meant to see a dime at 800 yards!!

A really excellent group is 1/2" at a hundred yards, not very often done, and somebody expects me to believe that their shooting at 800 yards is equal to that????
(That equals a little more than 1/20th" group at 100 yards to do that - and you still have all that extra down range wind etc to contend with when shooting at 800 yards.)

[Sniper]

I Dislike it too. Civvies who no it when never been there.

[Sniper]

A really excellent group is 1/2" at a hundred yards, not very often done, and somebody expects me to believe that their shooting at 800 yards is equal to that????

I did that once and I had a blindfold on, and I was ricocheting bullets off a friends helmet.

PT.

[Lou Girardin]

The Oklahoma bomber (McVeigh) was reputed to have taken an Iraqis head off at 2 km's with one round from a Bradleys 30mm.

[scumdog]

The Oklahoma bomber (McVeigh) was reputed to have taken an Iraqis head off at 2 km's with one round from a Bradleys 30mm.

I take it this is in the same context as Snipers last post!!

[Sniper]

Either that or it was a FUCKEN lucky shot. No skill.

[Waylander]

You guys are too serious about this. Best I ever managed with a rifle was a grouping about as big as the palm of my hand at 50 yards. All the previous was a piss take on you guys.

Did go hunting with a PSG-1 once though and didn't have a problem with the wieght. And definatly didn't have a problem with it for shooting. Got a 10 point buck after waiting around for 5 hours, still have the antlers around somewhere. Meat tasted wonderfull, not tough like usuall cause the buck was just bending down for a drink and didn't even hear the shot to tense it's muscles up.

[scumdog]

You guys are too serious about this. Best I ever managed with a rifle was a grouping about as big as the palm of my hand at 50 yards. All the previous was a piss take on you guys.

Did go hunting with a PSG-1 once though and didn't have a problem with the wieght. And definatly didn't have a problem with it for shooting. Got a 10 point buck after waiting around for 5 hours, still have the antlers around somewhere. Meat tasted wonderfull, not tough like usuall cause the buck was just bending down for a drink and didn't even hear the shot to tense it's muscles up.

Is this another piss-take? 'Didn't hear the shot to tense it's muscles up' - wtf, the only time the muscles get tough is when there has been time for the old adrenaline to flow - as when shooting at a deer that has sussed you out and is running for it - or if you screw up and only wound it and have to shoot it twice..
Standing deer unaware you are thirty yards away, BANG, dead deer, = tender meat.

[Waylander]

Is this another piss-take? 'Didn't hear the shot to tense it's muscles up' - wtf, the only time the muscles get tough is when there has been time for the old adrenaline to flow - as when shooting at a deer that has sussed you out and is running for it - or if you screw up and only wound it and have to shoot it twice..
Standing deer unaware you are thirty yards away, BANG, dead deer, = tender meat.

Everytime I've had a dear tense just before I shot (due to some movement I made or some other thing that spooked it) the meat was really tough. Who knows maybe the farm raised deer y'all have here are different. Takes all the fun out of hunting either way.

[TwoSeven]

I still dont hold with the knats bollox being shot off at long range stuff. I can understand if you've been on a scope and tripod and fired off 20 rounds getting it calibrated in order to shoot a range target is different from being able to hit something while active. Even for the latter it is technically possible to hit the target, but you'd have to fire off half a dozen rounds in order to calibrate the scope first.

There is a basic rule, you cant hit what you cant see, and I defy anyone to see a cars radiator grill at 1500 meters, let alone hit it, unless you are using a scope and a very high powered military grade rifle - which btw. is cheating. I'd also like to see the person who can see detail past 300m. There is a reason while most snipers operate with a spotter. Its because they are shooting at stuff they cant see (the spotters role is to correct the shot)

Perhaps some photos of the shot being made are in order to back things up.

Most military types I suspect from oberservance calibrate their rifles for a set distance and leave it like that (set it long and shoot close I was once told).