New Zealand army - no weapons no ammo.

[Wolf]

Every time I've been out we've seen "sign" but no deer. Closest I came was extremely fresh scrambling marks up the bank of the river - it had obviously scented us before we got to it because the wind was at our backs.

I can't track worth a damn so we did what we usually do - blunder around for a while until we're sure we've scared off every deer within three miles, find a likely bank, empty the box of ammo into our pockets, put the ammo box against the bank, retreat as far as the terrain will allow and shoot the crap out of the ammo box using up the ammo in our pockets - thereby scaring off all the deer within 15 miles...

Closest contact with any game larger than rabbits, hares and possums was walking around the corner and encountering 4 goats at about ten metres. They looked at us, surprised; we looked at them, surprised... and they ran.

The bloke in the lead had a 7mm Mag bolt action with safety on and nothing in the chamber. I was following carrying a (borrowed) Norinco AK-47 clone so naturally I had nothing in the chamber and the safety was on.

After the goats had vanished, the guy was saying "damn, I wish I'd had a round chambered, I could have bagged one. Couldn't chamber a round in time." This was the same dick who blew up a King Fisher, proving that you can have a really accurate, flat trajectory rifle and still get nowhere if you're not prepared.

He had to admit that maybe the guy with the semi-auto should have been up front, or at least the bloke in the front should have been ready to fire...

Incidentally, the AK-47 is a great little bush carbine - light, easy to carry, would love to have had one.

[Sniper]

Two seven. Thats why I said, it takes practise and when you are good enough, you are good enough. Besides, I don't understand. I am talking about snipers and you are saying shooting without a scope. I have no intention of shooting without a scope and FYI, I never needed a spotter.

[Hoon]

There is a basic rule, you cant hit what you cant see, and I defy anyone to see a cars radiator grill at 1500 meters, let alone hit it,

Well actually thats not quite true. With target shooting using open sights there is no way you can see the bullseye so what you are doing is centering the ENTIRE target (which just looks like a dot) in the centre of your sights. If your aim is good, the round will hit the centre of whatever is in the centre of your sights, ideally the bullseye. The trick isn't making sure the crosshairs are right where you want the bullet to go, its making sure the target is correctly centered in your sights.

Likewise a vehicle, you wouldn't be visualizing the grill, you'd centre the entire vehicle, maybe adjust a click or two down (and sideways depending on its orientation) or just aim off.

Dispelling another myth, scopes don't make you any better shooter (unless you are on a bench). You are only as accurate as your hold and aim allows - too much magnification can often make things worse by shaking all over the place creating hesitation (ala zoomed in handycam).

[Lou Girardin]

I take it this is in the same context as Snipers last post!!

Could well be, it was Merkin media after all.

[Lou Girardin]

There is a basic rule, you cant hit what you cant see, and I defy anyone to see a cars radiator grill at 1500 meters, let alone hit it

This is why you can't use traffic laser at these ranges.

[Sniper]

Well actually thats not quite true. With target shooting using open sights there is no way you can see the bullseye so what you are doing is centering the ENTIRE target (which just looks like a dot) in the centre of your sights. If your aim is good, the round will hit the centre of whatever is in the centre of your sights, ideally the bullseye. The trick isn't making sure the crosshairs are right where you want the bullet to go, its making sure the target is correctly centered in your sights.

Likewise a vehicle, you wouldn't be visualizing the grill, you'd centre the entire vehicle, maybe adjust a click or two down (and sideways depending on its orientation) or just aim off.

Dispelling another myth, scopes don't make you any better shooter (unless you are on a bench). You are only as accurate as your hold and aim allows - too much magnification can often make things worse by shaking all over the place creating hesitation (ala zoomed in handycam).

Thank you Hoon.

[Wolf]

Dispelling another myth, scopes don't make you any better shooter (unless you are on a bench). You are only as accurate as your hold and aim allows - too much magnification can often make things worse by shaking all over the place creating hesitation (ala zoomed in handycam).

Fucking tell me about it! First time I aimed a rifle with a scope on it I watched the crosshairs bouncing all over the scenery and thought "Shit, do my hands shake that much?" The scope certainly showed up every little movement.

[TwoSeven]

Two seven. Thats why I said, it takes practise and when you are good enough, you are good enough. Besides, I don't understand. I am talking about snipers and you are saying shooting without a scope. I have no intention of shooting without a scope and FYI, I never needed a spotter.

A barbie doll could shoot with a scope given enough 'practice'. Which is why I dont think much of it And I would suggest that if you've never worked with or needed a spotter, then you've probably never done any BVR (beyond visual range) shooting. Which questions the snipering stuff, since at best its no more than practicing target shooting with fancy clothes on. Long range shooting requries a spotter because its unlikely the shooter will have seen where the shot went (due to recoil and low magnification of the scope). The spotter calls the location, and will call windage and drop - depending on how the team works. BTW I think the record for a kill shot with an L96 rifle in the UK is about 850 off metres with a 17m drop. (I had to look that last bit up). Which is another reason I disbelive the long range shooting claims.

Centering the entire target and taking a shot hoping to hit the center is called taking a 'pot shot', again, it requires no skill - its basic 'grunt' training. More than likely, all you've done is pre-ranged and centered the scope. In fact for a target that far away, most military organisations espouse the use of an LMG or more rapid firing weapon to ensure hit capability, rather than rely on short range rifle work. The alternative is to use two or more soldiers equiped with LLRs to give suppressive fire. The reason thats done is because you cant put a scope/binocs on an LMG and the alternative is to bring up an APC which would present itself as a large stationary target or cause the threat to hide. The use of an LMG for this role is why the brit army carries two L86s per section (one per fire team).


The art of rifle shooting as I see it is to be able to get close enough to see and hit the intended target without the use of aids. I used to chase bunnies with a bow as a yoof and believe me its hard getting close (like within 30 feet), especially since the sods can outrun the arrow (you need to move to a crossbow or composite box to hit bunnies if full flight). The only time I ever went goat hunting, we got close heaps of times (way easier than bunny bashing), but due to extreme lazyness, no-one was prepared to carry the goats after we shot them, so in the end we left them all alone. Dont really see much point in it anyhow unless its done for a crust.

[Hoon]

Centering the entire target and taking a shot hoping to hit the center is called taking a 'pot shot', again, it requires no skill - its basic 'grunt' training.

Umm wrong again...this is the same (and only) method used by competition and Olympic shooters to win gold medals. You don't "hope" to hit the centre, you "know" you will because you did last time and the time before that, etc. This confidence comes from years of practice eliminating and adjusting for all the unknown variables until you can successfully duplicate all the conditions that result in a hit. Hell if it was easy everyone would be doing it!! Just because you don't understand the principle does not mean it can't be done.

[rfc85]

i blew away a tree with a 76mm once -and the tree was a long long way away-sure beats a rifle, scope or no scope

[Wolf]

Umm wrong again...this is the same (and only) method used by competition and Olympic shooters to win gold medals. You don't "hope" to hit the centre, you "know" you will because you did last time and the time before that, etc. This confidence comes from years of practice eliminating and adjusting for all the unknown variables until you can successfully duplicate all the conditions that result in a hit. Hell if it was easy everyone would be doing it!! Just because you don't understand the principle does not mean it can't be done.

Quite right. The attached files show the three commonly used sight pictures - Centre of Mass, Six O'Clock and Sub-six.

Which is used depends on the preference of the shooter. Whichever the shooter uses, the weapon sights are calibrated (if possible) at the appropriate range and the shooter employs a time-honoured technique known in the trade as "practising one's arse off".

[ManDownUnder]

the shooter employs a time-honoured technique known in the trade as "practising one's arse off".

Sounds technical... how does it work?

[Wolf]

Sounds technical... how does it work?

I read a great essay in some American "Shooting" magazine, can't remember which one, where the author's mate, a relative noob, bought a pistol and was going to get it "Accurized" at great expense. The author, an experienced shooter knew that the pistol was quite accurate and the only thing wrong was that his mate couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and needed a lot of practice. Instead of saying so in such blunt terms, however, he asked his mate what model pistol it was and then said (expert mode on) "Ahh, I see the problem. The actions of those weapons are always stiff when brand new. You need to loosen it up. Go out and buy about 500 rounds of ammo, go down to the range and shoot some targets. You'll notice that as the action frees up the pistol will gradually get more accurate." So his mate did as suggested and reported that, Yep, the pistol was more accurate now.

And well "it" should be after the shooter has fired 500 rounds into a target.

[scumdog]

Quite right. The attached files show the three commonly used sight pictures - Centre of Mass, Six O'Clock and Sub-six.

Which is used depends on the preference of the shooter. Whichever the shooter uses, the weapon sights are calibrated (if possible) at the appropriate range and the shooter employs a time-honoured technique known in the trade as "practising one's arse off".

Look at the pics on this posting and imagine that little centre dot where the centre of the target is.
That is what a dime would look like at 800 yards through a 10X 'scope, this is what certain people claim to have hit at 800 yards.
Tough shot eh?

[k14]

And well "it" should be after the shooter has fired 500 rounds into a target.

haha, good effort. Wonder how much 500 rounds cost him, probably $6.99 at k-mart, lol.