New Zealand army - no weapons no ammo.

[Wolf]

A pot shot is a term used to mean an amount of guessing is done. It comes from the term "pot luck". Nothing to do with any other meaning you have put on it as far as I know.

Funnily enough, the meaning I put on it coincides with the dictionary's one. Buy a dictionary.

For the record: when I shoot I do not guess, I aim. "Guessing" runs the risk of missing or, far worse, missing a vital area and wounding...

The initial calibration shot anyone makes - is called a pot shot because they have to guess to some degree (unless you are already set up). Once the round has landed, you can then callibrate for accuracy and remove the guess.

This will shock you, but firearms come from the factory fitted with bits of metal on top of them called "sights". These "sights" are set at the factory to show where a standardised bullet (set weights of projectile and powder) would land at various ranges.

While you may guess where you're pointing the rifle, those of us who can shoot use said sights when fine-tuning those same sights to suit the ammunition we prefer to use (or the sight picture we prefer).

We AIM the rifle at a target using the sights, shoot, note if the bullet landed where we thought and, if not, make the necessary adjustments - if the sights are able to be adjusted. The factory setting of the sights is generally close enough to put the bullet into the target. And the factory setting is not a "guess", either, it is based on real ballistic experience and measurements.

I've done enough shooting to be able to fire a group and calibrate a sight. It really doesnt take much skill unless you've no idea what your doing.

What size group are we talking, here, and at what range?

Olympic shooting as far as I have seen is only about shooting a tight grouping and being able to afford the equipment the buggers use
...snippage...
It would be impossible for me to do the 300m rifle,
...snippage...
The 10 point is 100mm across and I think from memory they use a low power sight. Its certainly not a dime.

What Olympic event are you talking about?

Mens Olympic events are: 50m rifle three positions (prone, standing, kneeling); 50m rifle prone; 10m air rifle; 50m pistol; 25m rapid fire pistol; 10m air pistol; 10m running target; Trap (shotgun); Double Trap (shotgun); and Skeet (shotgun).

The full-bore rifle is not an Olympic event.

The Olympic/UIT Small bore rifle (.22lr) 50m event has a 10.4mm (not 100mm) bullseye (10 ring) - not even twice the diameter of the bullets (5.56mm) they are shooting at it. All use iron sights - no magnification at all.

"Tight groupings" are for hunters (or cops) who generally have larger targets. If I can shoot a consistent 100mm group at 100m (and I do not recall having to shoot a rabbit or possum at that distance) it is more than adequate to put a bullet into the chest of a rabbit but it won't win me any UIT or Olympic matches. (The equivalent would be a 20.8mm target at 100m).

Having "done enough shooting to be able to fire a group and calibrate a sight" does not qualify you dismiss shooting and say "It really doesnt take much skill unless you've no idea what your [sic] doing".

When you can hit a 10.4mm target with a 5.56mm bullet consistently from 50 metres, then you might be qualified to dismiss it as "simple" but somehow I think, if you were capable of doing that, you wouldn't make such a comment.

And FYI all the "equipment the buggers use" is to make the task more comfortable for protracted periods and to damp out the human factors that can screw up their shots - such as their pulse. World class shooters also are accomplished athletes in other disciplines - running, cycling, rowing etc - so their muscle tone is as good as they can get it to avoid tremours at inopportune times.

But WTF, it's simple, right? Anyone can put sixty bullets into the 10.4mm ten ring from 50 metres in only sixty shots using metal diopter sights* - you'd have to have no idea at all to fail, it doesn't take much skill at all... Dunno why we bother having competitions, really. And all the equipment they have makes it even simpler...

*Olympic record, prone position.

[scumdog]

When you can hit a 10.4mm target with a 5.56mm bullet consistently from 50 metres, then you might be qualified to dismiss it as "simple" but somehow I think, if you were capable of doing that, you wouldn't make such a comment.

But WTF, it's simple, right? Anyone can put sixty bullets into the 10.4mm ten ring from 50 metres in only sixty shots using metal diopter sights* - you'd have to have no idea at all to fail, it doesn't take much skill at all... Dunno why we bother having competitions, really. And all the equipment they have makes it even simpler...

*Olympic record, prone position.

Too true, I can plug 5 shots from my Sako .22 into a 12mm circle at 50 metres most of the time but EVERY time is a bit different.

Seems like a whole world of difference on this site between those that HAVE and those that THINK they can.

[Timber020]

haha, good effort. Wonder how much 500 rounds cost him, probably $6.99 at k-mart, lol.

I paid $40 for 100 rnds of 38 short at walmart.

[Wolf]

Too true, I can plug 5 shots from my Sako .22 into a 12mm circle at 50 metres most of the time but EVERY time is a bit different.

Pretty good shooting, SD.

I have no idea what I could do these days - I have not set up a proper target and tried for so long (haven't even fired anything but an air pistol for ages) and I doubt I could see a 12mm circle at 50 metres these days, my right eye is so buggered. I can see well enough to hunt "small game", but it's been years since I tried shooting a target. I sold my target rifle ages back (BSA Heavy-barrel Martini action .22lr) only have the Brno bolt action .22, a couple of air rifles, the air pistols and the SKS these days.

Would like to get out somewhere and actually properly sight in the rifles and see how bad I've gotten over the last few years. All my shooting mates, like me, have settled down with their families (and a few have moved on) and have other things to do. Finding a place where you can go out and bang off a few rounds over a decent range can also be a PITA.

[SARGE]

I agree. I think what the poms have done is a good idea and reorganised on the battlegroup. NZ could field at least two or maybe even 3 marine based battlegroups with full equipment - it has the capability and experience to do it, but the current structure is not effective.


New Zealands LDP (long range development plan) states that it will have a fully motorised infantry (its to be two battalions). The airforce will be getting the new NH90 helo's.

Info Here

the US Marine corps has been using a MAU (Marine Amphibious Unit) / MEU (Marine Expeditionary Unit) style deployment for decades. my unit was totally self contained. Aircraft and helo's, engineers, motorized and foot infantry, armor and artillery, logistics, C&C etc. we needed for nothing and we could land anywhere, anytime with VERY little notice ( i was in Grenada with 48 hours notice)

[Hoon]

Still disagree. Your taking a pot shot.

The time honored technique for lining a scope up (be it on a rifle, or bow or anything else) is to take a 'pot shot' at your aiming point. You can either then adjust your aim in one of two ways.

No offence but you speak like someone that has studied the topic but lacks any real depth, has very little application, practical knowledge or contact with those that have, yet consider yourself an expert on the subject. You seem to have a narrow view of how things should work based on this subset of info and see any attempt to educate you further as an insult to your intellect.

Bringing yourself onto the target with follow up shots is not a luxury everyone can afford. What about the lone platoon sniper with no partner? Or the sniper pair firing into long grass or scrub? How bout the Police sniper who has just arrived on his building top and only gets one chance with a cold barrel?

Shooting is a discipline and like I said takes practice until all the unknowns become knowns.

The pic on the left is a card I shot last week at 25m on a .22 prone with a sling. Ignoring the 3 sighting shots in the centre you are looking at about a 5mm spread. Shooting 12 of those cards in a row on the 50m range at the Olympics would've won gold.

On the right is 100m 5 shot groups using the Army Steyr 5.56mm (.223) in the prone - look at the holes not the grey patches. Those groups are about 5-10cm. Not my best (about 36mm) but the only pic I could find. On a good day I can land 4 out of 5 head shots (fig 12c target) at 500m.

I am by no means claiming to be an expert shot. I've had my arse handed to me enough times by a variety of people both military and civilian from Army Sniper instructors to 12 yo kids and am under no illusion to where I lie in the pecking order.

The fact is that to be able to shoot a rifle well takes practice and lots of it. To think any different is for those that never will.

[TwoSeven]

You'll find I've been very carefull to keep military shooting away from target shooting. The two in most scenarios have different requirements (usually one uses a pre-ranged/sighted high velocity weapon and shoots close up as I have already said in earlier posts, the other doesnt). You cant cite a military scenario and then go, when I shoot at targets I do blah blah blah - its bollux.

The common theme from everyones post has been that you need practice so you dont take a pot shot, yet in just about every single post made, someone mentions that they then proceed to fire a group of shots to calibrate the weapon. The very first shot fired has to be a guess - otherwise it would mean your weapon is already set up for that target - which I would then question, why you are firing the initial group to calibrate the weapon if its already set up.

The other common example then cited in order to contradict themselves, is a brief description of some mechanism to pre-calibrate the weapon so they dont have to fire the sighting round - i'm really suprised than no-one except me has even described the use of drop and windage charts (or pda s/w that does it) - yet its considered a basic skill for any hunter who is shooting long range.

The opinon I am forming is that either people are very badly trained with their equipment, or seem to be a bit confused with the difference between military, target, hunting, BVR and other styles of shooting and are hence applying the wrong techniques to the situation or are trying to use one technique to argue against the other.

When you practice with any piece of equipment be it a spoon or rifle you are doing so to condition yourself to the feel and reaction of the equipment - it has nothing to do with whether you can hit the target, how you calibrate the equipment or anything else - its just simple human conditioning a.k.a pavlovs dog. In otherwords basic psychology. When you are comfortable with a piece of equipment you will in general perform to a higher level of standard than when you dont feel comfortable with it (this is subjective to the level of concentration applied) - it does not imply as people are suggesting that this is the only way to do it. That would be a rather stupid assumption to make in any sport. To give an example, I stir my coffee with a teaspon every day - have been for the last 25 years so I am pretty good at it - but I would be wrong to assume that someone who had never done this, could not get to the same standard by only ever being given training on how to do it. This odd example, applies to anything. Which is why I question people saying the only way to shoot accurately is to practice all the time. I would say its 'one of the ways'.

Also, I never claimed to be an expert at anything - in fact I found shooting the most boring sport out except golf, gave it up ears ago (still like the technology tho). I just called bollux on those people who were claiming to be so good they could see an hit targets that everyone else on the planet finds nearly impossible.

[Sniper]

Its funny to see all the veiwpoints. Especially thos who no nothing about the subject except on what they think and read. Those who have practised with small bore and on the range with a styer (Hoon, Im fucken impressed ) and those who have had experience in using rifles but only in a hunting circumstance or competition.

I don't feel like putting anything of mine up here will prove or simplify things. It won't prove to TwoSeven that I could shoot a ciggarrette out of his mouth at 500m. It won't prove to scumdog that some civvies just don't believe.

Wolf all I can say to you mate is that with some practise, you would rock, same as anyone who has the patience and mind-set. Well done to all of you who shoot competitions and hunt. Some of the best shots I know are just civvies who hunt and everytime I see them I have the utmost respect because they are doing something I havent managed to achieve yet.

Thats my shit over.

Sniper

[Charlie]

Its funny to see all the veiwpoints. Especially thos who no nothing about the subject except on what they think and read.

Sniper, apart from noting that you are ALWAYS on the net; I'm guessing your an army lad as are a few others.
I'm behind the 8 ball so going back a few topics to the putting down of the ability of the Army and the Airforce... I'm gonna give my bleat and will try and keep it short.
Anyone who has experience the military will defend its purpose and the skills of the servicemen (or at least I do). Granted NZ's defence is a little laughable but I believe that is because so few Kiwis see the need for it forcing the government to invest nothing into it. Our servicemen and woman are up there with the best in the world... and we're shoving it to them with equipment and resources lightyears behind other countries.
To say that the Air Force is redundant and that it should merge with the Navy is crazy. Firtly I'll say that with technology and weaponary available worldwide the ability to blast anyone from anywhere is so real. Therefore I reckon the sky is where attention be given. By the time some crazy man hits the button, what can anyone on the ground do but put their heads between their legs and kiss their...
So I'm gonna sing a short praise for our boys (and gals)...
5SQN (or the marine planes) do loads of search and rescue for boats in distress. They carry out maritime patrols protecting our shores and can cover a stack load of area in a short time.
3SQN (the heli-choppers) are the un-sung heros. The assist the NZ police with drug busts & search and rescue 365 days a year. They pull bodies (dead or alive) from mountains & valleys etc etc and do it all without thanks or glory.
Our pilots, service men and logistics support do a great job with what they've got and the Army I'm sure are the same.
The day to day things the do may not seem very war-y but they do their part for the average NZer - little do they know.
The strike capabilities and lack of, is another story which I could rant for ages about but I know I will be hard pressed to change the minds of those who think differently.

Blaa Blaa I know.

Charlie Mike out

[Wolf]

The common theme from everyones post has been that you need practice so you dont take a pot shot,

Take a look here and here - "pot shot" has nothing to do with guessing as you assert. It is a guaranteed hit on an easy target - which still involves aiming by the way. For an example - a stationary rabbit at 25m is pretty much "dinner" already.

yet in just about every single post made, someone mentions that they then proceed to fire a group of shots to calibrate the weapon. The very first shot fired has to be a guess - otherwise it would mean your weapon is already set up for that target -

It is to a point as I said above:

This will shock you, but firearms come from the factory fitted with bits of metal on top of them called "sights". These "sights" are set at the factory to show where a standardised bullet (set weights of projectile and powder) would land at various ranges.

The factory setting is also based on a particular "sight picture" (see above).

It is not a "guess" - the weapon has been "sighted in" (even if only by being set up to predefined measurements).

which I would then question, why you are firing the initial group to calibrate the weapon if its already set up.

Because not all of us use the same ammunition and sight picture.

Example: XYZ corporation produces a .243 calibre hunting rifle with iron sights. These sights are set at the factory based on a centred sight picture and a 75-grain projectile (there are other factors such as weight of powder, shape and composition of projectile and the powder's burning speed but we will ignore these for the sake of simplicity).

I, however, prefer a "six o'clock" sight picture and I use a 90-grain projectile (but by strange coincidence all other parameters are the same as the factory's standard load)

If I fire that rifle, I will note it is shooting low and I will then adjust the sights accordingly to compensate for my choice of ammunition and my choice of sight picture. I would then go out hunting secure in the knowledge that the rifle is accurate for my shooting style.

Likewise, if I purchase a firearm second-hand I sight it in again, expecting that the previous owner would have set it up to suit his/her preferences.

[Sniper]

Sniper, apart from noting that you are ALWAYS on the net; I'm guessing your an army lad as are a few others.

Good on ya charlie. Its good to see those who stand up for themselves and their unit. Just FYI, I was an army boy and the reason I am ALWAYS on the net is because my current job is boring.

[Charlie]

Good on ya charlie. Its good to see those who stand up for themselves and their unit. Just FYI, I was an army boy and the reason I am ALWAYS on the net is because my current job is boring.

Hahah, well I was Airforce (dont hate me).
And I have one of those jobs too. Starting to wonder how I went from styers and hoochies to a career at a desk. I musta fucked up somewhere!

[Sniper]

Hahah, well I was Airforce (dont hate me).
And I have one of those jobs too. Starting to wonder how I went from styers and hoochies to a career at a desk. I musta fucked up somewhere!

Hehe, I have nothing against the Airforce. Hell you guys let me apsail out of a couple of choppers. The only time I didn't like the airforce was out on the Piss. You remember those nights?

[Charlie]

Hehe, I have nothing against the Airforce. Hell you guys let me apsail out of a couple of choppers. The only time I didn't like the airforce was out on the Piss. You remember those nights?

Ahhh I love choppers!
Yeah I remember those nights; cocky testosterone pumped egos... and real cheep booze!

[Wolf]

Starting to wonder how I went from styers and hoochies to a career at a desk. I musta fucked up somewhere!

The desk job is karmic punishment for evil deeds done in a previous life. Going by my job: in my previous existence I must've murdered a king or been a used car salesman...


or tax consultant...