Steel vs timber framed houses - Opinions please

**Usarka** · 15th June 2012, 16:33

Originally Posted by boman

Whilst having no first hand experience, with owning a steel framed house. A very good mate of mine, built one approx 20 years ago. He only recently sold it.

He changed the paint scheme, in it a couple of times,and did the kitchen too. One thing I did notice, that the Gib had no cracks on joins at all, unlike my similar sort of aged wooden framed house. The house was quiet, and warm, and the the best of my knowledge,he had no problems with the electrics or anything else, in the 20 years I have known him.

He would build another again, tomorrow.

Did he ever get lost?

**smidey** · 15th June 2012, 17:45

like anything, which ever way you go has benefits and drawbacks.

I have been in the building industry as a QS and project manager for 15 or so years and would go with timber as the steel side has no where near as much "time proven qualities". The main reason is GALVANISING IS A SACRIFICIAL SURFACE, one of my first jobs as a teenager was in a galvanising plant and it is quite easy to accelerate corrosion of zinc. So may times boaties would come in complaining about the first 2m of their chain rusting excessively in a year. This was always down to the dirty great SS swivel they had on the end of it creating electrolysis. there is a huge amount of moisture in houses and that has to go somewhere or not as the case of the houses are today. Old houses leak but the water could get out, now the council has made you plug the holes.

As for building them, a guy i know built a number of houses in steel frame up here and he found it a lot longer to construct them as he could fire nails as fast as he liked but it added quite a lot of time in the whole "put the screw on the drill, start drill etc" for each fixing. Also when modifications needed to be made to the "prescrewed" frames they were buggered, timber they could just cut a nog or stud and nail it in.

Basically there aren't any major benefits in going with steel and we don't really know the drawbacks yet so if it aint broke.......

**Grumph** · 15th June 2012, 19:30

Originally Posted by smidey

like anything, which ever way you go has benefits and drawbacks.

I have been in the building industry as a QS and project manager for 15 or so years and would go with timber as the steel side has no where near as much "time proven qualities". The main reason is GALVANISING IS A SACRIFICIAL SURFACE, one of my first jobs as a teenager was in a galvanising plant and it is quite easy to accelerate corrosion of zinc. So may times boaties would come in complaining about the first 2m of their chain rusting excessively in a year. This was always down to the dirty great SS swivel they had on the end of it creating electrolysis. there is a huge amount of moisture in houses and that has to go somewhere or not as the case of the houses are today. Old houses leak but the water could get out, now the council has made you plug the holes.

As for building them, a guy i know built a number of houses in steel frame up here and he found it a lot longer to construct them as he could fire nails as fast as he liked but it added quite a lot of time in the whole "put the screw on the drill, start drill etc" for each fixing. Also when modifications needed to be made to the "prescrewed" frames they were buggered, timber they could just cut a nog or stud and nail it in.

Basically there aren't any major benefits in going with steel and we don't really know the drawbacks yet so if it aint broke.......

You're not wrong about zinc - and this framing has just a flash coat too versus the bright zinc we're used to seeing on our bikes.
A little known fact is that some people can't work as metal polishers because their sweat is acid and causes a "bloom" on polished metal.I have been told of one case here in Canty where a builder's labourer was obviously like this - a fair amount of what he'd handled was showing corrosion before it was clad. I suspect that the framing should be handled using gloves...but how many will do that ?

**HenryDorsetCase** · 21st June 2012, 08:40

And here was me going to build a Lockwood home: perhaps now, not so much:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...es-1-1m-action

Thats the guts of the "franchise" builder system right there. The punters respond to the "We build a quality product" advertising, and the thought that "Well, its a big company who will look after me if ti goes wrong, and look, they're (wait for it) "Master Builders"..... where do I sign?" the GJ Gardner advertising is a good example of that.

When it does go wrong, inevitably the response is the response from Lockjaw: "We dont guarantee the work of our franchisees, you go fuck yourself, Oh, and don't bad-mouth our product or we'll sue." None of which makes the punter happy.

I've said it before, and its opportune to repeat: It comes down to the skill, care, and interest level of the builder. Always.

I am going to be the worst client ever, because I would like to build a house next. Well, a 60 sq m insulated and airconditioned garage with a couple bedrooms attached.

**HenryDorsetCase** · 21st June 2012, 08:44

Originally Posted by Grumph

You're not wrong about zinc - and this framing has just a flash coat too versus the bright zinc we're used to seeing on our bikes.
A little known fact is that some people can't work as metal polishers because their sweat is acid and causes a "bloom" on polished metal.I have been told of one case here in Canty where a builder's labourer was obviously like this - a fair amount of what he'd handled was showing corrosion before it was clad. I suspect that the framing should be handled using gloves...but how many will do that ?

fascinating.

I am looking out from my orifice window at a new build site (commercial) under the new regs. 11m piles, three storey, and they are using a pretensioned EQ resistant timber post and rail system. Its going to be a nice building.

Here's the kicker though: $400/sq m to lease. Thats pre-fitout and with no carparks. I was offered it and have declined.

**flyingcrocodile46** · 21st June 2012, 19:06

Originally Posted by HenryDorsetCase

fascinating.

I am looking out from my orifice window at a new build site (commercial) under the new regs. 11m piles, three storey, and they are using a pretensioned EQ resistant timber post and rail system. Its going to be a nice building.

Here's the kicker though: $400/sq m to lease. Thats pre-fitout and with no carparks. I was offered it and have declined.

You're right about it being the kicker. The industry is fucked at both ends.

The market wont pay enough for builders to make a decent profit out of jobs, so they have no funding to keep and/or train employees properly and in many cases don't make enough to do the job properly. Insufficiently trained people end up doing jobs involving materials and detail requirements that they know nothing about and have no (paid) time to learn about. Fuck ups are made and are ignored/hidden because either they don't have the nouse to realise it or no one has the money to replace the fucked materials and lost labour.

At the other end, the customers who expect delivery of a new Audi on a used Lada budget are left with a sour taste in thier mouthes that gets even worse as the hidden faults come to light. The litigation process starts and already depleted budgets get sucked dry without anything being fixed. The builders lose and the customers lose.

It ain't going to get any better untill the market pays a fair and sustainable (in the medium and long term) price that allows for the labour to drive the nails and the cost of training the monkey to weild the hammer with the level of skill appropriate to the task.

**caseye** · 21st June 2012, 21:07

Croc for Queen!
Right on brother, 100% accurate assessment, now all we need is for Jk to say
"OK, Mrs Queenie, how we gunna fix this"
LOL, you know I love you.

**flyingcrocodile46** · 21st June 2012, 21:55

Originally Posted by caseye

Croc for Queen!
Right on brother, 100% accurate assessment, now all we need is for Jk to say
"OK, Mrs Queenie, how we gunna fix this"
LOL, you know I love you.

Thanks for the sentiment Caseye, but the market and dumb/hungry builders broke it and are the only ones that can fix it. That would require a degree of price fixing (possibly linked to nationaly leveled Rawlinsons type schedule rates) and for the market to change their mindset from one of quantity and time to one of genuine desire and proper appreciation for quality. That would rekindle tradespeoples desire to learn about and provide quality work. It is going to be a very slow process if it happens at all.

Tlhe govt can't do either of pthe above for us. We have to do it for ourselves and that requires a level of awareness and unity that doesn't appear to be on anyone's agenda.

**caseye** · 21st June 2012, 22:46

Jeeez! yer starting to sound like Katman.
Not that that's a bad thing.
I know exactly what you mean, have seen builders steadily deteriorate into jigsaw puzzle assemblers, give them a slightly complex roof design and Oh Brother , the sky's falling in. Simply never had the experience to do it.

**Brian d marge** · 22nd June 2012, 02:28

Originally Posted by flyingcrocodile46

You're right about it being the kicker. The industry is fucked at both ends.

The market wont pay enough for builders to make a decent profit out of jobs, so they have no funding to keep and/or train employees properly and in many cases don't make enough to do the job properly. Insufficiently trained people end up doing jobs involving materials and detail requirements that they know nothing about and have no (paid) time to learn about. Fuck ups are made and are ignored/hidden because either they don't have the nouse to realise it or no one has the money to replace the fucked materials and lost labour.

At the other end, the customers who expect delivery of a new Audi on a used Lada budget are left with a sour taste in thier mouthes that gets even worse as the hidden faults come to light. The litigation process starts and already depleted budgets get sucked dry without anything being fixed. The builders lose and the customers lose.

It ain't going to get any better untill the market pays a fair and sustainable (in the medium and long term) price that allows for the labour to drive the nails and the cost of training the monkey to weild the hammer with the level of skill appropriate to the task.

agrred

right product right time right place ...if youwant a skyline garage go for it ...but is the skills are being lost ,,,then shitty skyline garages are what you will get .....

open source strangely is kind of like that , try learning something technical under a free market ,,,,not happening

Stephen

**Winston001** · 23rd June 2012, 23:20

Originally Posted by HenryDorsetCase

And here was me going to build a Lockwood home: perhaps now, not so much:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...es-1-1m-action

Thats the guts of the "franchise" builder system right there. The punters respond to the "We build a quality product" advertising..... the GJ Gardner advertising is a good example of that.

"We dont guarantee the work of our franchisees, you go fuck yourself, Oh, and don't bad-mouth our product or we'll sue." None of which makes the punter happy.

I've said it before, and its opportune to repeat: It comes down to the skill, care, and interest level of the builder. Always.

Ah good, you saw that article. I'm waiting to see if the Southland Times gets sued by Lockwood for publishing it but I doubt they will take on Fairfax.

A few years ago my family built a holiday/retirement home. I spent a year (yes - a year) looking at kitset and total-build plans from all over the place plus I talked to clients and others who'd built houses. The one company which stood out was McRaeway from Timaru. So I went with them.

In all honesty I was a pain in the butt, changing rooms and windows, elongating the whole house (600 at a time) and they never complained. Ever. I used my own builder to do the work and that probably cost more but the kitset arrived on the right day, a few bits were missed, they turned up, and there were extras thrown in just to make sure.

Applause.

At the same time a good mate built one of the first steel framed houses. It was a fine home but dear oh dear there was a lot of work getting it up. His builder was good, said it was new, on the job, but...ultimately it was just a (very) good house. Timber would have been just as good.

Originally Posted by flyingcrocodile46

The market wont pay enough for builders to make a decent profit out of jobs, so they have no funding to keep and/or train employees properly...

It ain't going to get any better untill the market pays a fair and sustainable (in the medium and long term) price that allows for the labour to drive the nails....

Yep yep agreed. Wouldn't want to be a builder at all. The trouble is the average punter can't pay for a bespoke job even though that's what they expect. Not the builders fault and not the buyers fault.

**NighthawkNZ:Me** · 24th June 2012, 01:27

I like Woodstock ...

**HenryDorsetCase** · 24th June 2012, 12:34

Originally Posted by NighthawkNZ

I like Woodstock ...

the concert? It had some great bits sure, but some clunkers too

**BMWST?** · 24th June 2012, 13:07

I can tell you the prenail industry doesnt make much money,its ussually used as a lever to get the rest of the house.The independents then compete at that level too.