A unique problem with SI Buckets

[Yow Ling]

Up Norf where they run on Kart tracks, buckets get the whole track for the whole day, which allows them the luxury of being to run A,B, C grades. Down here its a bit different, we run as a single class slotted in amongst superbikes classics and whatever, so we dont get to seperate the really fast guys from the really slow, sometimes the closing speeds are very high.

With the BOB coming up soon we will have the same problem real fast guys and guys riding buckets that have been dragged out of the 80's and represent a danger to themselves and others when combined with a lack of experience.

Last weekend a new (old) guy was riding his second race meeting on his new to him bucket, a much faster rider passed him in the last corner on the B track, he got spooked sat up and crashed into the passing rider, went to hospital with a punctured lung and broken ribs.

Can we work out a way to get them introduced to racing by making newbies run in MCI development class untill they have some competence then join into the buckets. For some reason people think buckets is soft, I think its really tough and fairly hostile , which is what makes bucket s great, but we need to ease new people with no experience into the class, when Streetstock guys come over they well sussed and usually show the old guys the way round

Any one have an opinion on this ?

[Kickaha]

For some reason people think buckets is soft, I think its really tough and fairly hostile ,

Totally agree, it is hard competitive racing and not ideal for a novice (at least it was back in my day)

THE MCI idea is a good one, perhaps a certain number of meetings before being allowed to do BOB as well and the novice jacket worked quite well last time round

Maybe a "mentor" program for new riders

[Kendog]

We actually have a similar problem in Wellington, because the monthly racing is with the karts so we only get two classes.

While that does mean the fast guys race A grade, B grade has become a large group and is very cut throat. When new (slower) riders join, we have had problems. Made worse by the faster B grade riders not necessarily having the common sense or skill to pass sensibly.

[Grumph]

Firstly, the problem of wide speed and experience differential is not unique to buckets - National classes are having to deal with it as is Clubmans class. Unfortunately there is no one answer which suits all.

As an (ex)organiser I can assure you that a lot of thought has gone in - but very little answer has come out..
When Peter Jones was doing the training sessions we were getting some very well prepared young riders coming through - almost too well prepared...put them on anything and they were fast.

What I'd suggest is that the Bucket Club start briefing novices themselves...grab them after riders briefing and sort out any problems they have and if necessary give them a mentor for the day.
As regards slow older machinery...well I'm aware a number of you actively assist with problem bikes...surely this can be sorted with assistance from within the club. Pointing them at affordable, better machinery etc...

If as looks likely the BoB is a whole day event at Levels you will of course have the opportunity to run as many classes as you like.
Edit - not happening I see. At one point it was an option....

[Dutchee]

Auckland is the only place (at the moment) with the luxury of having the track to ourselves. We usually run F4, B grade and F5, but this past weekend ran a C grade for F4.

Some of those riding in C grade still crossed over to B grade, a couple of us didn't. I was riding my 100 in F5, and 150 in C (no speed difference, I'm slow whatever I ride).

I've pretty much given up on B grade, as it's newbies with little/no experience, and I find it terrifying. I don't trust the riders in front, so tend to back off to avoid them, and thereby stay slow (Captain Slow has nothing on me). The ones who then start getting experienced & faster, move up to F4 and I end up with more newbies. Nothing wrong with that (it's a good thing), but blardy hell, I'm over being captain snail and can't get past it.

I had one guy leaning on me in a practice session, looked over to see who it was (whether I needed to freak out or not) and spotted it was someone who did know what he's doing, so laughed and rode it out till he'd finally passed cleanly).

I do think if you're riding a class, stick with that for the day, unless you're changing bikes. We've had others who've heard there's a C grade running for the day (at another track) and decided that meant they could now have 3 riders using the bike. Only problem was they were part of the reason for running a C grade, so that they'd not be in F4 (being too slow for the class and thereby endangering everyone).

Fluoro vests can help, as even if the person is fast, they don't really know what they're doing, and I know when they're coming through, to give them a wide berth (I've generally spotted that they're eratic way before it's a problem, just with practice & such). Others take to it like a duck to water and aren't a problem.

All of us want to have fun, and I just don't really think there's a right answer around yet.

[Henk]

Not that unique a problem, we suffer from it up here as well, in fact we possibly have it worse than you given the fact that we run on much shorter tracks.
We had 45 people turn up on Sunday, fastest lap times were in the low 30s slowest around 47 seconds. The only solution we have come up with is to split into grades by lap times and that isn't ideal. Yesterday was the first time we ran a C grade and usually we can have the pointy end of the B grade in the 34s with complete novices at the back. The speed difference is if anything exaggerated on short narrow kart track compared to a full circuit and it isn't the only problem as the newer riders can have a tendency to sit up when someone dives underneath them seemingly out of nowhere and if they are dicing there is likely someone coming round the outside as well.
One solution we are considering is three grades with reasonably rigidly enforced cut off times, this is much easier to manage now that we have a transponder system up and running.
Will it be a silver bullet? Probably not but we have to try something to keep the B grade safe and have somewhere that the slower riders can feel comfortable without having to deal with being repeatedly lapped by riders on A grade equipment, riding with A grade aggression but still to new to the sport to have developed confidence and race raft. I know I sat up the first time I got lapped in A grade and I'd been racing buckets for a year or so at that stage.
Let us know what you end up doing and how it works.

[richban]

Its a scary deal for sure. Last BOB there were a few guys with vests out and about and I must say they were briefed well and didn't sit up or freak out at all that I noticed.

Like Grumph mentioned, Its a problem everywhere. Pre 65 car racing has seen some major incidence because of speed difference's. V8 mustangs cutting Hilman Ipm's in half.

I like the idea of on track mentors. Its the quickest way to get someone up to speed. Standing on the side line and saying hey hold your line and she will be right might not work. If you have a faster rider showing them the way it might fast track peoples confidence. Maybe the more experienced riders take it in turn to give up a race or practice to help out the new guys and girls. The stakes are higher in the south for sure with massive speed differences all the time. Same problem in the GP. Is it time to look at minimum qualifying times for the 2 big events where people are really pushing for results. Maybe a wider margin. Like taking the lap time from 12th on the grid and apply the normal rules whatever that percentage is.

My 3 Cents. Happy to help here in Wellington.

[Muzzab]

It's certainly a tough question. I only started racing a couple of years ago and well remember being startled by the fast guys as they came roaring passed. I manage not to be lapped in the shorter races now, most of the time. But you have to start somewhere and for many just tinkering with bikes, taking part and being there is what it is about. It's still unsettling to see someone carted off in the ambo though.

[F5 Dave]

Not that unique a problem, we suffer from it up here as well, in fact we possibly have it worse than you given the fact that we run on much shorter tracks.
. . ..

No actually it is worse on bigger tracks. You are more likely to have a smack on a kart track, but the problem with the longer tracks & slow bikes is you can be drafting in a bunch on the straight & the lead rider pulls out around a slow ride, lets say he's on a Fck'd YB100 with a speed of 60k tops. You're pulling 140 by then. Then a bike appears in front of you.

Its not funny.

I'm afraid they should have a cut off time for safety sake. Generous one for sure, but we were lapping some of those guys every few laps.

[Bert]

No actually it is worse on bigger tracks. You are more likely to have a smack on a kart track, but the problem with the longer tracks & slow bikes is you can be drafting in a bunch on the straight & the lead rider pulls out around a slow ride, lets say he's on a Fck'd YB100 with a speed of 60k tops. You're pulling 140 by then. Then a bike appears in front of you.

Its not funny.

I'm afraid they should have a cut off time for safety sake. Generous one for sure, but we were lapping some of those guys every few laps.

having been a Mobile chicane myself; i tending to agree with the comments about cut off times.... or maybe bringing back the B-grade GP as well ????
I'm sure a few of us would happily put a trophy up for grabs; imagine that; 60-70 buckets turning up for an event...

[speedpro]

I saw the thread title and thought - carb icing.

[Shorty_925]

lets say he's on a Fck'd YB100 with a speed of 60k tops.

YB100's are great, and to top out at 60K, it must be pretty shit! Used to have one for going to and form school. Ran it dry of pre-mix a few times, but it kept on ticking.
Had a quick lie-down up sweatcacres, too much lean angle, not enough clearance from exhuast...

[TZ350]

A unique problem with SI Buckets

Any one have an opinion on this ?

I saw the thread title and thought - carb icing.

LOL ... .........

[Buddha#81:Me]

Yup been giving this some thought before this thread.......The best solution for newcomers to gain a little track experiance is to have a trianing class at lunchtime (MCI, Cams and Bears all have a lunch break). Run by the more experianced guys paired up with a decent debrief after. Being that they could ride for free at the lunchbreak you would/could see more people wanting to give it a go without the presure of heading out to the track in race conditions. Say three of these before goin to the track.

Another thing is have a brainstorm session and come up with a list of do's and donts......we have a good source of rules, bike prep but not what to expect when you actually get there!

Oster where are you.......you been there (here) and done it!

[Voltaire]

My Son and I go to Mt Welly from time to time, he prefers the Saturday 'slow' practice session.....he's getting used to bikes coming from all angles.... I have only done two race days and i just hang ( actually that's all I can manage) at the back of b grade .... the first 3 or 4 lap me....blue flag has made that easier.
It was pretty busy there on the weekend with 40+ bikes, and its only a 500 meter track.
Gives new meaning to 'bucket list"...
I have started doing a bit of classic racing this year.......I find that easier. but the bucket crowd are great.