848s in Supersport? A submission from Joe (Very) Average

[slowpoke]

In the interests of promoting discussion here's a copy of my submission to the MNZ Road race Commission:


Re: Remit to allow 850cc twins into the Supersport class‏

Hi all,

I'd just like to take this opportunity to express my further support for the above proposal.

As the recent purchaser of a 2005 Ducati 749R race bike (the last reasonably competitive 750cc twin) it's been a splash in the face with cold hard reality of how far off current pace these bikes are. Power (for 2005) is not bad...but the weight, lordy lordy too mucha pasta! And I have no doubt the maintenance costs will be similarly impressive. But would I trade it for a 600? Hell no. Would I trade it for a much cheaper to maintain and more competitive 848 with it's plentiful supply of parts? Now there's a different proposition.....and while I'm (apparently) far from normal there are undoubtedly other people who feel like I do and would put them on the grid.

Or as spectators, would be excited to see them on the grid.

Or the Motomart/Haldane/Bayride/Casbolts type dealers and s/h (KTL, Emoto, Ducati Spares etc) motorcycle/parts importers who would be encouraged to support something a lil' different on the grid.

I recently followed the 2012 NZSBK circus around the South Island competing in the supporting Clubman's class on a fairly decent superbike. My times would have qualified me for the championship class but the yawning chasm between my "just fast enough" laptimes and the next "very fast" guys, let alone "world class fast" Robbie, Stroudy, Choppa and co is sufficient deterrent to prevent an entry. But I learnt heaps, experienced new tracks, met some great people and with the early release (thank you!) of the 2013 program and a friendly work roster I'm already planning to repeat the Clubman's exercise.

My point? As a late starting part timer (work committments) I wouldn't consider entering the Superbike championship class. On the face of it a 600 makes good sense but after racing a Ray Clee built GSXR1000 a GSXR600 seems far too much like something exactly the same only minus 50hp hence it holds virtually no appeal. The 749R is completely different and a comparative breathe of fresh air but is well past it's use by date to consider entering Supersport, no matter how much fun it is to ride. But had I known 848's were allowed there'd almost certainly be a different bike in the shed and I'd be very seriously considering an entry in Supersport with it's greater variation of talent compared to Superbike. I doubt I'd be alone, as either a new entrant or in piloting an 848. Not because it has any performance advantage but because many of us tend to race the bikes we like rather than the bikes we should. Some can and do shake their heads at this but if you aren't planning on making a living out of it you're only there for one reason: because you enjoy it. Racing the bikes we like makes it more enjoyable, simple as that.

If world class Jake Zemke can't dominate against Supersport bikes in the the American DSB class surely any claims of performance advantage are null and void. He is the most highly credentialled rider in the field, has healthy backing, yet when I last saw was in 6th place in the standings, a long way back from Cardenas on a GSXR600.

Ultimately the question becomes do we want to progress the championship and expand not just the field, but the manufacturers, suppliers and supporters involved in the sport? I hope the answer is "Yes".

Please note, I have deliberately tried to steer away from facts and figures in this correspondence. They speak for themselves as I briefly mentioned in my Zemke comments, and I'm sure they have been scrutinised in depth by far more analytical minds than mine. Instead I have tried to express what would appeal to me as a (very) average racer and make me want to increase my participation. Allowing 848's into Supersport does exactly that.

Regards
Spud (Bruce) McKenzie
MNZ licence 20185


For KB readers: please note I knew going into the 749R that it was not up to the minute competitive, it was never my intention to race it at National level, the purchase was done simply for the love of the bike and in an effort to get a few more laps racing than I could get on a Jap Superbike. The point I'm trying to make is that given an interesting alternative my choice would probably be different and the grid at National level would be bolstered. From conversations with other people I'm not alone in being interested in racing an 848 in a class that we would otherwise have no interest in joining.

[Biggles08]

.... don't quote the entire farken thingy Morris .....

Good on ya for submitting an opinion regardless of whether it's on the money or not...it is an opinion.

Personally I say bring them on (848's)! I think it would be awesome having a different tone circulating around the track.

[Dreama]

Yeah, well said Spud. There will of course be the anti brigade, but let's hope the 'directors' see beyond them and look at ways of encouraging more guys onto the grids.
In the end it's a pretty simple formula really ie more riders = more spectators = more money = more racing etc

[Tony.OK]

From the spectator side of the fence I can't wait to see/hear them ripping round the track. And as said before how can more bums on bikes be a bad thing?

Spud ya better start sweet talking as to why the landscaping has been put on hold, surely theres room in that huge trailer for one more skinny vee twin?

[jellywrestler]

I think it would be awesome having a different tone circulating around the track.

There already is Wiggles, your bike circulating at 11000 RPM when everyone else is running at redline!

[Biggles08]

There already is Wiggles, your bike circulating at 11000 RPM when everyone else is running at redline!

And they still can't catch me?! go figure

[tigertim20]

In the interests of promoting discussion here's a copy of my submission to the MNZ Road race Commission:


Re: Remit to allow 850cc twins into the Supersport class‏

Hi all,

I'd just like to take this opportunity to express my further support for the above proposal.

As the recent purchaser of a 2005 Ducati 749R race bike (the last reasonably competitive 750cc twin) it's been a splash in the face with cold hard reality of how far off current pace these bikes are. Power (for 2005) is not bad...but the weight, lordy lordy too mucha pasta! And I have no doubt the maintenance costs will be similarly impressive. But would I trade it for a 600? Hell no. Would I trade it for a much cheaper to maintain and more competitive 848 with it's plentiful supply of parts? Now there's a different proposition.....and while I'm (apparently) far from normal there are undoubtedly other people who feel like I do and would put them on the grid.

Or as spectators, would be excited to see them on the grid.

Or the Motomart/Haldane/Bayride/Casbolts type dealers and s/h (KTL, Emoto, Ducati Spares etc) motorcycle/parts importers who would be encouraged to support something a lil' different on the grid.

I recently followed the 2012 NZSBK circus around the South Island competing in the supporting Clubman's class on a fairly decent superbike. My times would have qualified me for the championship class but the yawning chasm between my "just fast enough" laptimes and the next "very fast" guys, let alone "world class fast" Robbie, Stroudy, Choppa and co is sufficient deterrent to prevent an entry. But I learnt heaps, experienced new tracks, met some great people and with the early release (thank you!) of the 2013 program and a friendly work roster I'm already planning to repeat the Clubman's exercise.

My point? As a late starting part timer (work committments) I wouldn't consider entering the Superbike championship class. On the face of it a 600 makes good sense but after racing a Ray Clee built GSXR1000 a GSXR600 seems far too much like something exactly the same only minus 50hp hence it holds virtually no appeal. The 749R is completely different and a comparative breathe of fresh air but is well past it's use by date to consider entering Supersport, no matter how much fun it is to ride. But had I known 848's were allowed there'd almost certainly be a different bike in the shed and I'd be very seriously considering an entry in Supersport with it's greater variation of talent compared to Superbike. I doubt I'd be alone, as either a new entrant or in piloting an 848. Not because it has any performance advantage but because many of us tend to race the bikes we like rather than the bikes we should. Some can and do shake their heads at this but if you aren't planning on making a living out of it you're only there for one reason: because you enjoy it. Racing the bikes we like makes it more enjoyable, simple as that.

If world class Jake Zemke can't dominate against Supersport bikes in the the American DSB class surely any claims of performance advantage are null and void. He is the most highly credentialled rider in the field, has healthy backing, yet when I last saw was in 6th place in the standings, a long way back from Cardenas on a GSXR600.

Ultimately the question becomes do we want to progress the championship and expand not just the field, but the manufacturers, suppliers and supporters involved in the sport? I hope the answer is "Yes".

Please note, I have deliberately tried to steer away from facts and figures in this correspondence. They speak for themselves as I briefly mentioned in my Zemke comments, and I'm sure they have been scrutinised in depth by far more analytical minds than mine. Instead I have tried to express what would appeal to me as a (very) average racer and make me want to increase my participation. Allowing 848's into Supersport does exactly that.

Regards
Spud (Bruce) McKenzie
MNZ licence 20185


For KB readers: please note I knew going into the 749R that it was not up to the minute competitive, it was never my intention to race it at National level, the purchase was done simply for the love of the bike and in an effort to get a few more laps racing than I could get on a Jap Superbike. The point I'm trying to make is that given an interesting alternative my choice would probably be different and the grid at National level would be bolstered. From conversations with other people I'm not alone in being interested in racing an 848 in a class that we would otherwise have no interest in joining.

if the underlined is the case, theres no reason why you cant buy one and race it in bears.

I am obviously on the anti brigade, but (my opinion only) while your letter is quite a passionately worded one that Im sure many will read and understand perfectly, the crux of your argument is 'because I want to'. The argument about more bums on seats, and more entries etc doesnt, as far as Im aware, have any factual basis - its only an opinion.

Im not against changes to rules etc, but if you guys really want to push for it, wouldnt it help your cause to actually have names, numbers, figures and facts, that PROVE it would be the right decision to let them enter? making a change just to suit one or two, or maybe three people is in my opinion, a bad idea, and sets a dangerous precedent that anyone can get the rules bent if they petition/whinge/request or whatever.

Does anyone have any confirmed figures on how many people have $xxxx set aside and are poised to buy up an 848 if it gets the go ahead? have any of these shops confirmed that the addition would draw financial, or other support from them for the series?

[CHOPPA]

I think its great. I would seriously consider it.

You cant prove who will race one but common sense says they will. It will also draw sponsorship money for the series out of Ducati as it has with BMW since the S1000RR came out.

With the Panigale set for release it would be great to be able to run a Supersport/Superbike team 848/1199.

There is no BEARS class as a national series

Supersport is supersport it is not the 600cc class. It is for middle weight sport bikes and that is where the 848 fits.

I dont know why MNZ cant just set up a vote system like they did with the president election. Any proposed rule changes could just come to a vote from people that actual have race licences and understand. Maybe even limit it to the competitors that race that class in the nationals the year before.

This doesnt effect the club day riders etc its only the people that race the nationals

[CHOPPA]

If you think its a good idea and have strong reasons why it should or shouldnt be changed let your voice be heard.... mnzrrc@gmail.com

[Kevin G]

I think its great. I would seriously consider it.

You cant prove who will race one but common sense says they will. It will also draw sponsorship money for the series out of Ducati as it has with BMW since the S1000RR came out.

With the Panigale set for release it would be great to be able to run a Supersport/Superbike team 848/1199.

There is no BEARS class as a national series

Supersport is supersport it is not the 600cc class. It is for middle weight sport bikes and that is where the 848 fits.

I dont know why MNZ cant just set up a vote system like they did with the president election. Any proposed rule changes could just come to a vote from people that actual have race licences and understand. Maybe even limit it to the competitors that race that class in the nationals the year before.

This doesnt effect the club day riders etc its only the people that race the nationals

Given the complete apathy that the licence holders show when it comes time to vote for President or the Board why would they vote for a rule change...

[jellywrestler]

I am obviously on the anti brigade,

anyone can get the rules bent if they petition/whinge/request or whatever.

have any of these shops confirmed that the addition would draw financial, or other support from them for the series?

Strong word 'rules bent'it's not getting the rules bent, if the rules weren't changed as bikes evolved we'd all still have 250 350 and 500 single cylinder pom bombs.

Anyone who hasn't go there head up their own Anus, or somebody else's will see that the Italian fans are passionate and I'm sure a few would be lured to the track to support someone on a spaghetti bike.
You only need to look at all the mobility scooters at the tracks now that the BMW's are actually racing...

[scracha]

IRegards
Spud (Bruce) McKenzie
MNZ licence 20185 [/I]

Dear Spud,

You can race an overpriced 848 Spaghetti bike at the back of F2. However, please be aware that if these devious eyeTies bring out a superdooper sub 850cc twin and they start pissing all over Japan's 599cc finest, then they can fark off back into Bears, Clubmans or join the big boys and race em in F1.

regards

Scracha

ps. By the same logic, surely Kawasaki 636 owners should be able to race in F2?
pps. And why not 850cc parallel twins either?
ppps. Fuck it....lets bung in VTR1000's and TL1000's too...mmm....and V max's
pppps. 749.......yuk. Had they ran out of 748s?

[lukemillar]

pppps. 749.......yuk. Had they ran out of 748s?

I see I'm not the only one thinking that! Sorry Spud

[CHOPPA]

Given the complete apathy that the licence holders show when it comes time to vote for President or the Board why would they vote for a rule change...

People that care, vote. People that dont care, dont vote.

Secondly its a lot closer to home when the rules get changed for the class you race in. Most people obviously couldnt give a shit who is on the Board or who is the President. (i voted)

[Kickaha]

ps. By the same logic, surely Kawasaki 636 owners should be able to race in F2?
pps. And why not 850cc parallel twins either?
ppps. Fuck it....lets bung in VTR1000's and TL1000's too...mmm....and V max's
pppps. 749.......yuk. Had they ran out of 748s?

Put a remit in to change the rules to suit and see how far you get with it