Welfare support and drug testing

[Akzle]

I cant see the bit about everyone have the right to smoke it up for free? Lets see, food (all good with that), Clothing (yes), Housing(too right), medical care (absolutly), necessary social services (yep), security of employment(yes), etc etc....
No free drugs isnt there. Huh why ever not? Thats pretty fucked up aye......

"livelihood" =)

Ahhhhh isnt it the other way around? The difference being, their wants and expectations arent projected onto us, they are imposed on us. And yes, when they are imposed on me, I want a return. Not much, I just want them to be prudent with the money they are given. And when they fail a drug test when applying for a job, they impose on me again, because they clearly not only want my money, they also want me to satisfy their wants and needs with no intention of supporting themselves, which shows a clear lack of understanding.....but I'm not surprised by that attitude............sound familiar?

shaddup. it's your representative government. you had your say at election time. your opinion doesn't matter any more. you don't get a say in it.
don't like it?
stop letting them take "tax"

[Road kill]

Does the amount and quality of work a person does exclude them from being tested? I ask as employers could lose valuable members of staff because they had a smoke the night before.

Yes it does.
Some employers even go so far as to telling their pet stoners when the next test is.
After that it's just a matter of having a weed free weekend along with 3 liters of water a day and you come up clean or close enough on Monday morning.
I work with around a dozen pot heads,their drug tests are always on a Monday morning an they always seem to know when their due.
On the other hand mine could be any day and I never know when their due,,,but then I'm not one of the drug abusing cunts that endanger your life everyday of the week as they pilot their 10-32 tonne rigs down the roads of NZ......and my employer knows this.

How do I feel about drug testing the unemployed ?
I'd prefer the gov't works out why they are all unemployed first.
That might actually make a difference.

[Maki]

It was a hypothetical question. There are plenty of people looking for jobs, why are they gonna get the bash because there's a minority who won't work? and why aren't they taking the jobs? Not all will be lazy, not all will fail a drugs test, yet not all are employed. So why aren't they taking the jobs Mr Einstein?

Because the jobs are not where they happen to live. They would rather stay were they are and remain on a benefit than pick themselves up and travel somewhere where they would actually have to do work. It does not take an Einstein to figure it out. Thousands of primary school drop outs have managed to make this deduction...

[scumdog]

But that is the way it is done here. You get a check card (replaced food stamps) that is credited monthly with your benefit amount that you can use to buy food, nappies ect but not fags, booze, penthouse, Maccas or fish un chups. Can't (legally) get a cash advance either. Works great.

Yep. i realised that - bring it here!

AND be like Dakota where car insurance mandatory - paid with cash.
A beneficiary doesn't get cash there, just vouchers - ergo can't pay car insurance.

So...the state takes their drivers licence from them - and return it when they get a job.

(Well 7-8 years ago it was still that way)

Imagine the horrified screams from those excercising their 'right' to get the dole here in NZ if they introduced it.!

[mashman]

Yes it does.
Some employers even go so far as to telling their pet stoners when the next test is.
After that it's just a matter of having a weed free weekend along with 3 liters of water a day and you come up clean or close enough on Monday morning.
I work with around a dozen pot heads,their drug tests are always on a Monday morning an they always seem to know when their due.
On the other hand mine could be any day and I never know when their due,,,but then I'm not one of the drug abusing cunts that endanger your life everyday of the week as they pilot their 10-32 tonne rigs down the roads of NZ......and my employer knows this.

How do I feel about drug testing the unemployed ?
I'd prefer the gov't works out why they are all unemployed first.
That might actually make a difference.

... Aye, this policy will make a world of difference if that is true.

Because the jobs are not where they happen to live. They would rather stay were they are and remain on a benefit than pick themselves up and travel somewhere where they would actually have to do work. It does not take an Einstein to figure it out. Thousands of primary school drop outs have managed to make this deduction...

That the only reason? Or is that yet more propaganda? Why would anyone move to work, especially if they have settled kids at school, friends/family in the area and are happy where they are? @have to do work as if that's what's stopping them from moving. In which case perhaps the employers should move to an area where they can provide more jobs for people?

[Maki]

... Aye, this policy will make a world of difference if that is true.



That the only reason? Or is that yet more propaganda? Why would anyone move to work, especially if they have settled kids at school, friends/family in the area and are happy where they are? @have to do work as if that's what's stopping them from moving. In which case perhaps the employers should move to an area where they can provide more jobs for people?

That's inspired, why didn't I think of that... Move all the fruit farms and building sites to south Auckland! That would provide more jobs for the people and they could stay in their miserable neighborhoods. You should be a politician, mashman.

[Akzle]

thats what I reckon to , but just thinking out loud, could it be possible to remove oneself from the "taxable" state

stephen

quite easy. stop being "employed". operate cash only. dont talk to the government. return their letters unopened. do not vote.

look up "notice of understanding and intent and claim or right" (NuI, CoR) read through one five or six times. you'll get the point.

[mashman]

That's inspired, why didn't I think of that... Move all the fruit farms and building sites to south Auckland! That would provide more jobs for the people and they could stay in their miserable neighborhoods. You should be a politician, mashman.

I read that back and it wasn't worded well at all, no change there I guess... are there enough building sites in Auckland? Any other jobs in Auckland that pay well enough that they'll cover travel expenses to and from the city and pay a decent living wage after the bills are paid for? If so, then why are there people who want to work in Auckland, I'm talking about those who want to work, that don't just take any job that's on offer? They can't be that miserable if they stay there and don't want to move.

At the end of the day forcing people into low paid work and removing their only income stream is not only barbaric and as backwards as those who agree with the idea, it's slavery.

[Maki]

I read that back and it wasn't worded well at all, no change there I guess... are there enough building sites in Auckland? Any other jobs in Auckland that pay well enough that they'll cover travel expenses to and from the city and pay a decent living wage after the bills are paid for? If so, then why are there people who want to work in Auckland, I'm talking about those who want to work, that don't just take any job that's on offer? They can't be that miserable if they stay there and don't want to move.

At the end of the day forcing people into low paid work and removing their only income stream is not only barbaric and as backwards as those who agree with the idea, it's slavery.

What year did it become barbaric to expect people who can work to work? Even the citizens of the communist Soviet Empire where told that they had to work to eat. No work, no food. Is that barbaric? Making me work to pay people who are too lazy to work IS barbaric and that is making a slave out of me.

I guess I will have to word my posts directed to you more simply in the future to allow for your IQ, mash. Isn't it obvious that New Zealand's building sites and fruit farms can NOT be moved to South Auckland?

I have to say that this discussion has opened up a new perspective for me. I have always considered it a given that a healthy person should work to earn a living. If they can not get a job in South Auckland, Tonga, Samoa, Waikiki Beach, or wherever the hell they happen to find themselves, then the natural order of things is that they move to where there is work. They do NOT ask someone else to pay them for doing nothing because they like it where they live, they get cheap drugs and they do not have to work. Now I discover that there are people out there who are happy to work and and support those who have no wish to do any work themselves and would not do what is necessary to get work.

If you want to pay someone a benefit for sitting around smoking dope, wherever they happen to be I suggest you go ahead and do it. Just don't ask me to agree with it or pay for it.

[mashman]

What year did it become barbaric to expect people who can work to work? Even the citizens of the communist Soviet Empire where told that they had to work to eat. No work, no food. Is that barbaric? Making me work to pay people who are too lazy to work IS barbaric and that is making a slave out of me.

I guess I will have to word my posts directed to you more simply in the future to allow for your IQ, mash. Isn't it obvious that New Zealand's building sites and fruit farms can NOT be moved to South Auckland?

I have to say that this discussion has opened up a new perspective for me. I have always considered it a given that a healthy person should work to earn a living. If they can not get a job in South Auckland, Tonga, Samoa, Waikiki Beach, or wherever the hell they happen to find themselves, then the natural order of things is that they move to where there is work. They do NOT ask someone else to pay them for doing nothing because they like it where they live, they get cheap drugs and they do not have to work. Now I discover that there are people out there who are happy to work and and support those who have no wish to do any work themselves and would not do what is necessary to get work.

If you want to pay someone a benefit for sitting around smoking dope, wherever they happen to be I suggest you go ahead and do it. Just don't ask me to agree with it or pay for it.

Expect all you like, but forcing people into work is slavery. You choose to work, they don't.

No need to reword your posts if you read mine properly. I didn't mention South Auckland and I didn't mention moving building site or fruit farms. @IQ... it's how you use yer brain, not how powerful it is Mr black and white

... damn you're entertaining if nothing else. I still think there's some hope for human beings to work smarter, make sensible decisions and bend to the talents of those who can work instead of using a stick and excusing it by calling it a magic wand. Have you ever spent any time with those you deem are at the bottom of the human heap?

[Maki]

Expect all you like, but forcing people into work is slavery. You choose to work, they don't.

Until now the idea that a healthy person can choose not to work and instead live on handouts from taxpayers was a foreign one.

I have always assumed that a benefit was not simply a handout but a means to assist someone to get back on their feet and support themselves. Refusing the handout when a person refuses to work seems natural, not slavery.

If you consider the person on the benefit, how do you think they feel about themselves? Don't you think they would feel better if they were earning a living? In the grand scheme of things, don't you see that you might be doing someone a favor by insisting that they work rather than languish on a benefit? How many people have been damaged by becoming dependent on welfare to the extent that they sincerely believe that they are useless dregs of society and that their contribution is neither wanted nor needed? Who gains from reducing people like that? Does it make you feel high and mighty to know that you are helping those poor good for nothing useless slobs? If that is the way you think you should be ashamed.

[skippa1]

shaddup. it's your representative government. you had your say at election time. your opinion doesn't matter any more. you don't get a say in it.
don't like it?
stop letting them take "tax"

and I support the proposition of drug testing so I get what I want. What do you want.....actually dont tell me, that green shit makes me ill

[scumdog]

Until now the idea that a healthy person can choose not to work and instead live on handouts from taxpayers was a foreign one.

I have always assumed that a benefit was not simply a handout but a means to assist someone to get back on their feet and support themselves. Refusing the handout when a person refuses to work seems natural, not slavery.

.

Quite right, giving the right to do so I'd happily refuse to pay one red cent to such a person that chose not to work.

Their choice not to work

My choice not to pay them
Simple.

[Ocean1]

Expect all you like, but forcing people into work is slavery. You choose to work, they don't.

June 4th is tax free day for yer average kiwi, we've worked from Jan 1st until then to pay tax. Me, I'm still paying this years tax.

So I'm glad you feel it's unfair to make people work if they don't want to. Next year I'm choosing to pay tax until just May. There won't be enough tax to cover those who choose not to work at all. Sorry.

[mashman]

Until now the idea that a healthy person can choose not to work and instead live on handouts from taxpayers was a foreign one.

I have always assumed that a benefit was not simply a handout but a means to assist someone to get back on their feet and support themselves. Refusing the handout when a person refuses to work seems natural, not slavery.

If you consider the person on the benefit, how do you think they feel about themselves? Don't you think they would feel better if they were earning a living? In the grand scheme of things, don't you see that you might be doing someone a favor by insisting that they work rather than languish on a benefit? How many people have been damaged by becoming dependent on welfare to the extent that they sincerely believe that they are useless dregs of society and that their contribution is neither wanted nor needed? Who gains from reducing people like that? Does it make you feel high and mighty to know that you are helping those poor good for nothing useless slobs? If that is the way you think you should be ashamed.

Welcome to the world. What do you think the purpose of giving people the dole is? What is the fallout of not giving people the dole?

That's exactly what it is for, in exactly the same way that tax is for other things other than beneficiaries, yet there are plenty of working people who can afford not to structure their tax affairs so that they don't have to claim anything from the government, yet that's exactly what they do. Yet I don't see the loopholes being closed, do you? So persecute the majority that are down on their luck and are trying to get back into the workplace, just to punish the few who are playing the system. Superb logic! biting your nose off to spite your face much?

Whether they are working or not they will feel exactly the same way as they currently do. No I don't see forcing someone into work that doesn't want to work as a good thing at all, I certainly wouldn't see it as helping anyone, especially the employer. What do you mean by damaged? and if they feel that they are useless etc... then that's the fault of society, not wholly the person by any means. There are plenty of people who work that fit into that category... some even kill themselves, same as kids at posh schools with "everything" going for them. I understand what the fallout of not helping these (slobs? really? all of them? you really haven't spent any time living among these "slobs", have you?). My eyes are open and I have accepted certain truths, some of them are good for the economy and that requires that some of the population need to be unemployed. In no way am I ashamed of the way I view humanity, quite the opposite in fact... there are better ways of dealing with things and the path of greasing the voters palm isn't one of them. I once shared a very similar views to yourself, fortunately I changed my mind.