Welfare support and drug testing

[Akzle]

The problem is that a percentage of unemployed are unemployable and an even bigger percentage of them have got a shit attitude, are too lazy to get out of their own way and can't be fucked doing anything they don't want to. ...

The unemployed need confidence and character building support and a good kick in the arse to keep their heads in the right place. Make them wear an electronic zapper collar if you want. Set them to work cleaning community facilities, painting, doing chores for old people etc. If they don't like it they can get a job. No free rides.

i get all that. except the bit where you say "they can get a job" and as i said, i'm all for the work for benefit schemes. perhaps the scummy mummies could work at a formaldehyde factory... might sort it out.

and that's well and good. except you're tainting everyone with the same brush. some people are genuinely unemployed. between jobs "job seekers" as winz likes to call them now, but the fact remains, that there just innt enough jobs... and with 60-something % of the current workforce unhappy with their jobs... and with companies "tightening the belts" and "sharpening the pencils" there are going to be more and more "job seekers" with less jobs. innit

Yeah. Trouble is there seems to be no such thing as minimum employee value.

In fact, those beheficiaries WINZ offer employers with a discount of around $180/week represent a wage of around $10 an hour. Still no takers. There's be no takers if they were free. Welcome to the real world.

yes well. aren't you so glad you're in a caring, democratic, socialist society?
(i believe if you aren't happy, it's YOU who "should fuck off to timbuktu")

Yer delivery is a tad drab...

you are so close to being in the YAFM pile with Figgy and his mates.
just. shut. up.

[FJRider]

The industry policy won't change. The issue is people not meeting a reasonable policy.(plus more than 2x the money in Aussie (where they Still drug test BTW)
Using your words here rephrased.
People on drugs in the industry (one eyed fucktards) i work in Will kill people
Its not tiddly winks.

The average common garden building site labourer ... has the ability to kill somebody (or cause their death) if they're stoned at work.

[flyingcrocodile46]

ok ok... There will always be unemployed people, especially where there aren't enough jobs (the govt admits this, why won't you?). There are already too many people that are in jobs claiming some form of benefit anyway and that highlights that most people will want to work. Even if there are enough jobs the unemployed will exist. To that end, give those who don't want to be employed/are unemployable their cash to spend on what they would like, instead of wasting money figuring out policy's that will hound them into still being unemployed/unemployable. It's not hard. The money would be better spent on other things.

Essentially it's futile screwing those who have nothing to lose... and doubly futile to believe it will save money, especially if those "types" are willing to go to jail in the first place and cost even more to support. Are you prepared to waste even more money on those who don't conform? (that does not mean that they don't work)

You're a habitual pillow biter aren't you?

[FJRider]

Yes. The problem is that that means the individual actually has to do something in exchange for money. Fuck that. Far easier to skive off and break societies rules while society gives me the money I can't scam or steal from somewhere eh!

So they bring in Islanders by the plane load to do the work ... then the bludgers moan "No jobs" ...

[scumdog]

[COLOR="#139922"]

you are so close to being in the YAFM pile with Figgy and his mates.
just. shut. up.

Say what???

[Akzle]

...Far easier to skive off and break societies rules while society gives me the money I can't scam or steal from somewhere eh!

Time for some tough love. If that means they elect to break laws so they get a roof over their heads and free meals... then better that than rewarding them for being antisocial.

who can't steal?
you're saying you're in agreeance with society's rules? you never travel at more than 100km/h? you're never drunk in public?

and you're seriously saying you would rather the state spent 300k$ imprisoning them, than 11K$ paying them to sit on their ass and smoke dope..?
...really?

fuck. you should run for parliament. given the calibre of the average citizen, you'd probably be PM by next week. with taglines like that. woah nelly.

surely it'd be better fiscal policy to take 5% of the money from people at the top, rather than 5% from the people at the bottom. given that 5% of the top 1% is probably 500% of the bottom 5% of the 99%.

[flyingcrocodile46]

i get all that. except the bit where you say "they can get a job" and as i said, i'm all for the work for benefit schemes. perhaps the scummy mummies could work at a formaldehyde factory... might sort it out.

and that's well and good. except you're tainting everyone with the same brush. some people are genuinely unemployed. between jobs "job seekers" as winz likes to call them now, but the fact remains, that there just innt enough jobs... and with 60-something % of the current workforce unhappy with their jobs... and with companies "tightening the belts" and "sharpening the pencils" there are going to be more and more "job seekers" with less jobs. innit .

They need to make themselves employable by getting their heads around the fact that productivity equals profitability. Employers love profits and will grow their businesses as long as it is profitable. Productivity is essential and many (I haven't lumped all of them in as some are transitional) unemployed simply don't care to put themselves out enough to feed themselves. Fuck em. Don't reward them by giving them something for nothing. It pisses off others who are working but aren't much better off and they then decide fuck it I'll play the same game.

If you have an infection do you buy ointment that feeds the infection? No of course you don't. So why are we feeding (and encouraging/rewarding the growth) of such attitudes?

[husaberg]

The average common garden building site labourer ... has the ability to kill somebody (or cause their death) if they're stoned at work.

Not to mention a building engineer/Designer CTV anyone.........
All too true but on guy who worked in the industry who was just, (well incompetent or negligent) killed 70 in this case (thank god Cows) could have been kids though.But something that could also happen er.... a School Bus driver on P, Anyone got kids.............
Having said that i wonder if they test school bus drivers, (bet they do)... But then again they work for f all pay as well, don't they.... .Not enough IMO

[flyingcrocodile46]

So they bring in Islanders by the plane load to do the work ... then the bludgers moan "No jobs" ...

Exackery

[Ocean1]

Much better, ta.

ok ok... There will always be unemployed people, especially where there aren't enough jobs (the govt admits this, why won't you?). I agree, as long as there's benefits there'll be unemployed.There are already too many people that are in jobs claiming some form of benefit anyway and that highlights that most people will want to work. Agree there, too, but there's that chicken / egg thing: a family of average income can't maintain an acceptable lifestyle without government assistance. But if they were taxed less they'd manage fine. Resitribution of income distorts reality. Even if there are enough jobs the unemployed will exist. To that end, give those who don't want to be employed/are unemployable their cash to spend on what they would like, instead of wasting money figuring out policy's that will hound them into still being unemployed/unemployable. Why, because they'll take it anyway? Bad answer. As bad as my grand daugher telling my wife she's getting cake even though she hasn't washed up.It's not hard. The money would be better spent on other things.

Essentially it's futile screwing those who have nothing to lose... and doubly futile to believe it will save money, especially if those "types" are willing to go to jail in the first place and cost even more to support. Are you prepared to waste even more money on those who don't conform? (that does not mean that they don't work)

Dude. There is a natural default involved for those incapable of supporting themselves. They die.
There's a limit to what everyone else, in a caring society is prepared to give them in order that they can fail without the death thing. There has to be, because there's no natural limit to what the failures will take, wheras we've already exceeded a sustainable cost. In short: the cupboard's bare, work or die.

[mashman]

Bit of both, but this morning i asked 20 people at work, if they thought of Drug testing people on the dole was a good idea.
18 said hell yes 1 said no no was undecided.
They will be biased though because they were working and they all get drug tested.
10 days ago Solid Energy suspended all the staff and contractors here about 280 (Pop about 11000) here probably 1100 in Westport.(Pop about 6000 i guess.)
There was a march on the street with between 3000 to 5000 according to people there no idea of the official count sorry. Where is the protests on the street for the drug policy. where is the petition for the beneficiaries?

Conceded. Maybe their wages are going to be ploughed into this new policy.

You mean well educated..... But to your point of view Mashy

I mean seeing the damage that this policy could and probably will do. Tis already keeping those who would be more than capable away from jobs.

You are kind of trying to coerces me there yourself Mashy so i am guessing you are ok with it.

Simple question... t'would seem it was rhetorical though.

No but at least the trains would run on time lol.
The policy that you say is evil was spelled out prior to the election and was not unpopular. i certainly don't agree with most of the Nats policies and didn't vote for them either, but shit this is what happen they formed a coalition and are governing us.

Would there be less train drivers as they're a drain on society? They'd probably be automated.
Aye, that's the state of affairs today. Shit swallowing people, me included to a degree.

Which bit did i say? Maybe The industry is whining they can't get enough Drug free staff?

So it's a health and safety concern? that makes it all the more reasonable then. Great, passed the test today, will spliff up at work to celebrate.

The industry policy won't change. The issue is people not meeting a reasonable policy. and (plus more than 2x the money in Aussie where they still drug test BTW)
Using your words here rephrased.
People on drugs in the industry i work in(one eyed fucktards) Will kill people
Its not tiddly winks.

I will disagree with the people not meeting the policy. We have been getting along fine until now, I see no reason for that not to continue without such overtly stupid measures.
Does anyone ever die where drugs aren't involved?
You're right, it's not tiddly winks, it's people being at work under the influence that are the issue, not those with traces of substances in their system... a gulf in thinking that seems to be seriously lacking.

[mashman]

You're a habitual pillow biter aren't you?

Only if you treat me to dinner first.

[FJRider]

Having said that i wonder if they test school bus drivers, (bet they do)... But then again they work for f all pay as well, don't they.... .Not enough IMO

Often school bus drivers are semi-retired. The hour or so ... morning and afternoon is all the work they do.

You seen the type and NUMBER of pills those elderly bastards take ... ???


In recent months ... how many school bus drivers have passed out while driving their bus. And then made prime time tv news ..

There has been a few ...

[flyingcrocodile46]

who can't steal?
you're saying you're in agreeance with society's rules? you never travel at more than 100km/h? you're never drunk in public?

and you're seriously saying you would rather the state spent 300k$ imprisoning them, than 11K$ paying them to sit on their ass and smoke dope..?
...really?

fuck. you should run for parliament. given the calibre of the average citizen, you'd probably be PM by next week. with taglines like that. woah nelly.

surely it'd be better fiscal policy to take 5% of the money from people at the top, rather than 5% from the people at the bottom. given that 5% of the top 1% is probably 500% of the bottom 5% of the 99%.

You are trying to put words in my mouth. Let me help you understand where I am coming from regarding drug testing of the unemployed and their rights so we understand each other perfectly.

Put tracking collars on anyone on the benefit who isn't doing his pre arranged 40 hours of community service, so that they can be monitored and called up to clean up whatever needs cleaning up in their neighbourhood. Street cleaning, beach cleaning, oil spills, whatever. Give them nothing for nothing.

P.S. Tender management of the jail services to private industry and let them force the guests to do hard labour or the hole. Make it almost profitable to keep them. That'll make it much more palatable to the discerning tax payer who is keen to see his fellow man enjoys the benefit of a fully rounded education.

[mashman]

Much better, ta.

Dude. There is a natural default involved for those incapable of supporting themselves. They die.
There's a limit to what everyone else, in a caring society is prepared to give them in order that they can fail without the death thing. There has to be, because there's no natural limit to what the failures will take, wheras we've already exceeded a sustainable cost. In short: the cupboard's bare, work or die.

Sorry, there aren't enough jobs today, some of you are just going to have to die. That has promise. It works well in other country's around the world. Tell you what, ditch the financial system and everyone gets to live... they may even decide to work too (ok that has a huge hint of tui in there... butcha don't know until you try). Anyhoo, once they're dead who's gonna buy all of the cheap Chinese shit? It'll destroy our free trade status. There's more than enough to go around. Believing otherwise and believing that growth and the pursuit of money is the answer to anything is pretty hard core denial. Trust me, I've surfed the internet and found it out.

In response to the blue:

Fucksake what's with the blue? Hang on, I think I might know

As long as there's money there'll be benefits. Go figure.

If people were taxed less they wouldn't receive any services when they needed them as they wouldn't be able to afford those sorts of prices. Who's gonna go under the gun? The emergency services? Politicians (well, the current crop (all parties) I'm ok with that for some reason)? Would the private sector be able to look after those who are unfortunate enough to become unemployed? No, NZ would turn into a slave labour camp over night.

As for the mistreatment of your grand daughter... perhaps if you gave her the cake as long as she did the dishes afterwards she might do it. Or do you think that's sending the wrong message?