New Bucket class idea?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Recently my interest in buckets has been rekindled due to time off racing the 600, however I have completly lost interest in mucking around with my worn out MB100 now.

So I got thinking for alternative motors. I want to stick with a two stroke but the rules pretty much confine you to shagged out old motors from the 80s which are all well past their best and getting parts is a pain in the ass.

So I want to put the idea of a running 80cc MX engines with rulling something along lines of this,


80CC Only (no 85cc engines)
Pre 2000
Stock motors (everything inside remain stock, reeds porting etc)
0.5mm max piston oversize
Exhaust pipe open
Carb size limited to original manufacture size
Ignition limited to original or CDI equivalent (No ignitechs etc)

These motors make a peak of 20hp which is on par with moderate FXR150 and quite a bit less than a worked one!

I'm expecting quite a bit of resistance from people about it but I think it would spark quite a bit of interest because lets face it, MB100s and TF125s are little bit lack luster.

Also the ruling means that it is easy for someone to build a competitive bike, but limits budgets due to the fact that you can't change anything to make more power.

Ok now fire away with the flaming

[richban]

Recently my interest in buckets has been rekindled due to time off racing the 600, however I have completly lost interest in mucking around with my worn out MB100 now.

So I got thinking for alternative motors. I want to stick with a two stroke but the rules pretty much confine you to shagged out old motors from the 80s which are all well past their best and getting parts is a pain in the ass.

So I want to put the idea of a running 80cc MX engines with rulling something along lines of this,


80CC Only (no 85cc engines)
Pre 2000
Stock motors (everything inside remain stock, reeds porting etc)
0.5mm max piston oversize
Exhaust pipe open
Carb size limited to original manufacture size
Ignition limited to original or CDI equivalent (No ignitechs etc)

These motors make a peak of 20hp which is on par with moderate FXR150 and quite a bit less than a worked one!

I'm expecting quite a bit of resistance from people about it but I think it would spark quite a bit of interest because lets face it, MB100s and TF125s are little bit lack luster.

Also the ruling means that it is easy for someone to build a competitive bike, but limits budgets due to the fact that you can't change anything to make more power.

Ok now fire away with the flaming

Yeah little tricky. A stock FXR would get smashed buy one of these. Not a lot of people have the skills to build one so it's snot really an option as an entry level bike. Unlike an FXR. So as an upgrade sure what the fuck. Will be fun watching the hi sides.

One thing I would like to know is how much HP one of these will make with a Wobbly pipe and some attention to the jetting. Maybe running the MX airbox with dirty big oil covered fliter as well.

Then you might have to allow CRF150R stockers.

And then And then. Can of worms young man.

how about you just lease an engine of me.

[Henk]

Why not just open it up and allow competion engines full stop and move the watercooled 2T limit to 125. Actually I'm in the "the rules aren't broken leave them alone" camp and don't really want to see the guys who have gone to a lot of time and effort to build bikes that work under the current rules see their hard work consigned to the also ran basket because all of a sudden to be competive you need a late model RS frame with a 125 2T or 150 4T MX engine in it. If we were to open the rules that far that would be situation in twelve to eighteen months. People bitch that a two grand bucket is crazy money now.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Yeah maybe a air-box restrictor could be installed to peg the HP levels.

I know the MX boys get an easy 30HP out of the 85cc motors.

The thing I like is that you can pick up a an entire bike for less than you can buy a bloody bare FXR motor these days. Not to mention they'll be bastard to ride and wont be to everyones flavor so I can't see them taking over or anything silly like that. Just another variety to keep it interesting.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Why not just open it up and allow competion engines full stop and move the watercooled 2T limit to 125. Actually I'm in the "the rules aren't broken leave them alone" camp and don't really want to see the guys who have gone to a lot of time and effort to build bikes that work under the current rules see their hard work consigned to the also ran basket because all of a sudden to be competive you need a late model RS frame with a 125 2T or 150 4T MX engine in it. If we were to open the rules that far that would be situation in twelve to eighteen months. People bitch that a two grand bucket is crazy money now.

Fair view, much the same view a great deal of people had about the FXR150 when it was introduced and I distinctly recall statements such as "The rules aren't broken leave them alone" and "Guys who have gone to a lot of time and effort to build bikes that work under the current rules see their hard work consigned to the also ran basket"

Funnily enough the FXRs were another great incentive to the bucket class such as the RG50 when it came out (and demolished the MB50)

Times change and things have to change too.

A bone stock FXR150 bucket now is in the range of $1500+ Or a purchased "ready to race" $2000+

In comparison a half competent "tinkerer" Could build a 80cc powered bucket for less than half the $1500 FXR and keeps an interest in two strokes alive for the riders that want to ride and not spend more time on the dyno than on the track...

[richban]

If you could prove that all the engines will make 20 ish with the best pipe and standard MX everything then people might be a little more open to the idea. Build one and come race it. If you smash as all then you get the bash and have to by all the beers.

[Henk]

Rich

I can sort of see your point but at a time when buckets are going from strength to strength numbers wise I don't see that the rules need changing. If things were to change I see no point in limiting it to bikes that are at least 12 years old now.
MX go faster parts are so easy to get it would be damn hard to police as well given the relaxed attitudes most bucket guys have. Rad valve in there who knows and who is going to bother finding out?

[gav]

Keep your eyes open and bargain FXR race bikes turn up often enough, like the $1000 FXR down this way recently. I know of another that is for sale for $1300. (Which is what the $1000 was purchased for as well).
Any pre 2000 80cc MX bike is likely to be well shagged too, so can't see it being that cheap as an entry either.
Also know of several new 2T bikes being built at the moment none of which are being based on old MB or TF engines either.
From what I can see the sport seems pretty strong at the moment, with plenty of interest and some good ideas being bandied about.

[Pumba]

I am sure we have had this conversation before. Pretty sure the answer was no.

[richban]

Rich

I can sort of see your point but at a time when buckets are going from strength to strength numbers wise I don't see that the rules need changing. If things were to change I see no point in limiting it to bikes that are at least 12 years old now.
MX go faster parts are so easy to get it would be damn hard to police as well given the relaxed attitudes most bucket guys have. Rad valve in there who knows and who is going to bother finding out?

Yeah agree. its working now the class is the biggest road racing category in NZ so why change it.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Rich

I can sort of see your point but at a time when buckets are going from strength to strength numbers wise I don't see that the rules need changing. If things were to change I see no point in limiting it to bikes that are at least 12 years old now.
MX go faster parts are so easy to get it would be damn hard to police as well given the relaxed attitudes most bucket guys have. Rad valve in there who knows and who is going to bother finding out?

True with the age thing, make it easy to limit horsepower with a carb restriction then.

Keep your eyes open and bargain FXR race bikes turn up often enough, like the $1000 FXR down this way recently. I know of another that is for sale for $1300. (Which is what the $1000 was purchased for as well).
Any pre 2000 80cc MX bike is likely to be well shagged too, so can't see it being that cheap as an entry either.
Also know of several new 2T bikes being built at the moment none of which are being based on old MB or TF engines either.
From what I can see the sport seems pretty strong at the moment, with plenty of interest and some good ideas being bandied about.

Yes I know bargains come and go, I can also score a bare CR80 motor fully rebuilt ready to run for $200 too, but the bargains aren't what dictate the market. How much will I have to pay for a complete FXR racer right now if I went to buy one. That is current market price.

Either way my agenda for pushing this idea is because I don't want a 4 stroke as I am already building a rather special one of those that wont be ready for quite some time, and I do want a two stroke but I want one that is going to be reasonably competitive compared to the worked FXRs that are playing in the 20+ HP numbers with a good spread of power.

So a CR80 motor market price = $500 for just the motor (with new rod kit, pistin and bearings ready to go in radiator, electrics exhaust etc) or $800 for a whole bike with a fresh engine (from trademe)

Bang that in my frame I'm away racing mixing it with the boys again having fun and my bike is no faster than theirs and probably harder to ride which I dont mind. Remember most of the racing in welly is under the kart club not MNZ so the rules are "Self policed" I would not be silly enough to turn up to BOB etc with this motor.

I am sure we have had this conversation before. Pretty sure the answer was no.

Yeah it all popped up when choppa was looking into chucking an 80 into his bucket frame, but the so called bucket "Old schools" turned up and said no. Interesting, I realised today that I have been racing buckets for nearly 10 years now. How time goes by!

Yeah agree. its working now the class is the biggest road racing category in NZ so why change it.

I'm still going to build it and I have no problem restricting it so that it is same speed as say hamish's bike in a straight line which is what I would call a moderately powered FXR150 (around 20ish HP I would guess??)

[crazy man]

Yeah maybe a air-box restrictor could be installed to peg the HP levels.

I know the MX boys get an easy 30HP out of the 85cc motors.

The thing I like is that you can pick up a an entire bike for less than you can buy a bloody bare FXR motor these days. Not to mention they'll be bastard to ride and wont be to everyones flavor so I can't see them taking over or anything silly like that. Just another variety to keep it interesting.

no way you would get 30hp out of a mx 85 when l dynoed shane kings 250 at 32 hp diffient type of power needed for mx but l dont mind the idea of mx80s running in buckets

[Buckets4Me]

Recently my interest in buckets has been rekindled due to time off racing the 600, however I have completly lost interest in mucking around with my worn out MB100 now.

So I got thinking for alternative motors. I want to stick with a two stroke but the rules pretty much confine you to shagged out old motors from the 80s which are all well past their best and getting parts is a pain in the ass.

So I want to put the idea of a running 80cc MX engines with rulling something along lines of this,


80CC Only (no 85cc engines)
Pre 2000
Stock motors (everything inside remain stock, reeds porting etc)
0.5mm max piston oversize
Exhaust pipe open
Carb size limited to original manufacture size
Ignition limited to original or CDI equivalent (No ignitechs etc)

These motors make a peak of 20hp which is on par with moderate FXR150 and quite a bit less than a worked one!

I'm expecting quite a bit of resistance from people about it but I think it would spark quite a bit of interest because lets face it, MB100s and TF125s are little bit lack luster.

Also the ruling means that it is easy for someone to build a competitive bike, but limits budgets due to the fact that you can't change anything to make more power.

Ok now fire away with the flaming

I read this as

I cant be assed buying a piston and rod kit for my motor
instead I want to buy a shaged out old mx engine (in the hope that some little kid hasent run it around a paddock at full tit in first gear)

then i expect it to last and run reliably (because my comuter bike dosn't)
bla bla bla

just build a decent 125 aircooled engine (I have a gp125)
spend a bit of money on a new crank and piston (probably less than rebuilding an mx engine)

and get out there racing

the rules are fine and dont need fixing (we have more people racing than any other class)

and if you arn't willing to spend $2000 on a decent bike then dont complain about it braking down (how much is an rm80 or kx80 ?)

[Buckets4Me]

no way you would get 30hp out of a mx 85 when l dynoed shane kings 250 at 32 hp diffient type of power needed for mx but l dont mind the idea of mx80s running in buckets

go buy a derbie 80 then

[crazy man]

go buy a derbie 80 then

why?.............