New Bucket class idea?

[Drew]

That just means that when it gets thrown down the track it will going faster doesn't it?

Real racers don't fall off as often as bucket racers.

[Henk]

Real racers don't fall off as often as bucket racers.

That's not the impression I got at the last couple of meets at HD that I have been to watch.

[TZ350]

Do you think that the very entry level class of racing in this country, which is meant to be cheap and fun, should cost that much to build a fast enough bike to win what ever titles there are?

Race commisioner Peter Rummage talking about Buckets ....

Hi again Gavin

As one who was building and racing buckets from the first day they escaped the Airforce, I can tell you the intent of the original rules was to encourage the building of performance, not simply the buying of horsepower in the guise of factory race parts.

Cheers
Peter R

Drew its not true that Buckets was conceived as an entry level race class, it can be for some but it really was conceived as a constructors class with certain eligibility rules designed to make sweat equity and cleverness count for more than $$$$$.

From day one there was serious tuning and construction going on.

For a buy it and ride it entry level race class compairable to your idea of a competitive Postie you need to look at street stocks or super lights or whatever the current small road bike limited modification class is.

Buckets as Cheap Entry Level racing ...... well it can be, but you will have to do some hands on work to be competitive at the pointy end.

[jasonu]

[QUOTE=TZ350;1130357816

$3750 all up, it would be interesting to know if Nick Cains current GP winning FXR150 cost more to get onto the track.
.[/QUOTE]

Even if it did it will most likely remain competitive for years to come (unless someone successfully gets the rules changed to allow 250 mx'ers ino Buckets...)
Not to mention the cost difference if either the FZR1000 or a fast bucket gets thrown down the road.

[Drew]

I will accept then, that my idea of the class is wrong. And concede that any changes are going to be met with more than not resistance.

I'll still look for a motor for my RGV frame, if I sell only the motor from it instead of the whole thing. And have fun running Glenn off the road.

[gav]

I think James Hoogie paid $3500 for his fully kitted Repsol CBR150 ex Andrew Forward. 2nd at BoB last year and 2nd at Bucket GP.

[TZ350]

I'll still look for a motor for my RGV frame. And have fun running Glenn off the road.

Welcome to Buckets ....

[ellipsis]

the Development class run by CAMS is designed for 150SS, 250 Prolites and buckets. So its not an open class as far as a full out 150 2t goes but saying that no one would be too concerned if you turned up with something(

...i'll clarify that, the CAMS 150/250 class is NOT a development class, it is a race class and we had no specific bikes classes models in mind when we said it would happen..the class is about building machines that are safe, go fast and dont resemble dirt bikes...competition motors are cool, as is making them more competitive...150 two stroke max..250 four stroke max, singles and twins...CAMS 150/250 is just about as open as you could get...just so happens that the classes gav mentions are eligible...

[koba]

Dude it's Kiwibiker, put the big words away and get over it.

Apart from mainly trying to troll a few people there is a small amount of genuine interest in changing the rules, but I know a lot of people in buckets are so precious about the "Current Rules" and seem so afraid of change that I didn't really bother with a "formal" approach.

I'd like to politely suggest that perhaps other things are being mistaken for "resistance to change". You appear to have misunderstood or disregarded the meaning of the post you have quoted there.

Sorry mate, but you are prime example of said person that seems oh so precious about your little bucket rule book, and lets face it they are a joke. Poorly written and so out of date now. The worst part is that MNZ have no interest and want to call us self policing. Hey you can always protest me....

"...oh so precious about your little bucket rule book..." Come on man, no need to be patronising. It's better for everybody if this is debated without it going down that track.
I've tried to be as clear as possible on this, my main issue is with your approach to this, your suggestion (true or not) of building a bike and showing up with scant regard for the rules or how your actions affect other competitors, not the details of any suggested rule changes.
Changes like those suggested are something that should be discussed and decided on based on a general consensus, rather than someone deciding to force their own agenda.

My main question of interest is apart from the reply "leave the rules alone" which is a fantastic way to get shit stuck in the past, what possibility does this concept have of hurting buckets? None, I can tell you though that there would be another half a dozen top level riders that would be racing buckets now that aren't because they don't want to muck around with engines they just want something close enough and will make the rest up with rider skill.

This paragraph demonstrates part of the problem I have with your approach, you 'ask' a question that you have already decided on your own answer to.

You have the skills, resources and abilities to build a fantastic bucket, you are in a far better position to do so than most competitors, yet others manage to play by the "the little bucket rulebook".


You already have a bucket that may have turned the fastest lap-times on Kaitoke, sure it may be poked now but you will have trouble convincing me that an old MX engine will be any more reliable than a solidly built and well maintained MB/H100. (Don't get me wrong, that's not a slight on the engine you had, it had proved it's worth over it's long life)


Is it really that hard to just come and play on something legal?

[TZ350]

...the class is about building machines that are safe, go fast and dont resemble dirt bikes...competition motors are cool, as is making them more competitive...150 two stroke max...

If I lived down CHCH way, a bored out RGV250 cylinder on a stroked GP125 bottom end, a big carb no holds barred 150cc 40+ hp 2-stroke, what joy.

[Buckets4Me]

If I lived down CHCH way, a bored out RGV250 cylinder on a stroked GP125 bottom end, a big carb no holds barred 150cc 40+ hp 2-stroke, what joy.

If I lived down that way Ned kellys rs125 engine with a bigger piston would be the way I'd go and all for under $2000 beat that

or i could go buy one of those new fandageld 4 bangers that replaced the rs125 if I wanted to empty the wallet

[Sketchy_Racer]

You have the skills, resources and abilities to build a fantastic bucket, you are in a far better position to do so than most competitors, yet others manage to play by the "the little bucket rulebook".


You already have a bucket that may have turned the fastest lap-times on Kaitoke, sure it may be poked now but you will have trouble convincing me that an old MX engine will be any more reliable than a solidly built and well maintained MB/H100. (Don't get me wrong, that's not a slight on the engine you had, it had proved it's worth over it's long life)


Is it really that hard to just come and play on something legal?

Yeah I see where you're coming from man and it's a fair view I guess

My attitude towards the "rules" of buckets is that they are never updated due to a consensus. in the 10 years i've been racing buckets, I have never seen a rule changed before the fact.

Eg: When I started racing the FXR is was illegal due to the fact that it was over the current 140cc limit of the time. But they got popular and people accepted them so the rule book had to be updated. Even way back then Fishies GL145 was breaking the 140cc rule. Were we all just a bunch of reckless rule breakers? hardly. (Except Bayden and his 190cc suzuki )

My point being is that I could go the formal way about it however this has been addressed on a formal front before but was met with the argument "the rules aren't broken so lets not fix them" which sort of attitude shits me to tears. Where's the "lets make it more interesting and more inviting to more people?" The bigger it gets the better it gets and I would like to see a better combination of top tuners VS top riders because lets face it not everyone wants to muck around with motors but want a bike that is close to competitive and ride the wheels off it.

The fact of the matter is I could fight for a year and get everyone onside have a rule change and get 80cc MX motors out there, only to find they are complete rubbish, OR I can try the concept as NON mnz events and see how it goes and see if there is any interest in the idea. (and if it is any good)

Either way, my long term plan is to have a motor that fits into the current rules and make lots of HP so I don't really care. I just want to put this CR80 in my bucket chassis and have a blast while I design and build the other one.

[gav]

How about a Moto3 bike then?
Thanks for clearing that up Neal, the "development class" is what MCI calls Streetstocks now, and includes buckets, 150SS and 250 Prolites. I guess the CAMS class is a bit looser

[Buddha#81:Me]

...i'll clarify that, the CAMS 150/250 class is NOT a development class, it is a race class and we had no specific bikes classes models in mind when we said it would happen..the class is about building machines that are safe, go fast and dont resemble dirt bikes...competition motors are cool, as is making them more competitive...150 two stroke max..250 four stroke max, singles and twins...CAMS 150/250 is just about as open as you could get...just so happens that the classes gav mentions are eligible...

I know of a 250 4t single going into a well sorted late 80's alloy frame for this class........good luck to std s/s and mini lite bikes! this is going to be a fun class. A old 125 gp bike (or even a newer one) would ruin everyones day with ease! Bren ya got that RM125 going yet? Buckets qualify but wont be long before there are being outgunned

[bucketracer]

Either i'll do this, or i'll chuck a shit load of money at something that's "legal" and has twice the power of the CR and be that dickhead with the out of hand expensive bucket with a 125GP chassis with lightweight racing wheels, brand new tyres ohlins front and rear, electronic ignitions etc ... hmm yep the spirit of buckets.

It will probably take more tuning talent than money ... So calling your bluff, bet you cant make twice the power of the CR with something "legal" no matter how much money you throw at it .....

The rule reads pretty clearly from where I'm looking - the use of competition engines and gearboxes is specifically disallowed ....... the ORIGINAL wording from 25 odd years ago is probably better, but what we have now is fine.

As one who was building and racing buckets from the first day they escaped the Airforce, I can tell you the intent of the original rules was to encourage the building of performance, not simply the buying of horsepower in the guise of factory race parts. So the rules specifically excluded the use of these ....

Cheers
Peter R

If you want to talk about the spirit of Bucket racing then where does just buying your CR80 hp because you are to lazy or un talented to build a good engine thats legal and competitive fit.

I know your a top talented rider and I may only ever be an also ran mid fielder however hard I try, so I could be on my own with this, but I think if you want to beat me at Bucket racing you should build your own motor within the rules and the spirit of Buckets to do it with.