Forced induction 100cc

[husaberg]

Holey Shit Glen.

I just stumbled across your Thread i was looking for you name as someone asked about MTB rear brakes.
All i can say is WOW.

On my thread it has some stuff about the Tramonta That Russell Savoy (RS developments) did it has the Plenum size etc.

I have posted this before but for those that missed it.

I haven't read all your thread so it may have been discussed already?

One thing i would add is if you are going to cram in 200CC performance it needs to be able to rid it self of the gasses as well as a 200cc bike would.
So larger ex Valve and duration.Tan the STD Lifin or what ever it is.

Yes I think you are right and as Yow Ling below says I probably wont be able to run a intercooler through a draw through system because of fuel dropout issues. I might have to design a water to air system that makes sure there is not possibility of fuel drop out.
Yep, completely overlooked that issues.
I guess it's back to solid works to design a water to air style that incorporates the plenum and pop-off valve into it.

I'll post what I come up with and see what you all think.

Simpliest Water to air intercooler is (knicked off the Autospeed site) an Marine oil cooler heat exchanger.

Item: Heat exchanger cores
Use: Water/air intercooler
Notes: Rare but a worthy pick-up. Jacket the outside of the tube stack and weld on fittings. Run water around outside of tubes and intake air through tubes. Suitable for smaller turbo cars.

Item: Fisher and Paykel washing machine 12V water solenoid valves
Car Use: On/off valve for water injection, on/off for pressurised intercooler water spray, potentially able to be pulsed at varying duty cycles.
Notes: Most washing machine solenoid valves use mains power (eg 240V) and won’t operate on 12V DC, so you need the Fisher and Paykel ones. They have ‘12V’ written on them (arrow).

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-C...0/article.html

Air to Air is far cheaper though plus lighter

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=581
http://www.injectacarb.com.au/fuel-p...d=7f20a539b789
http://www.turbogemini.com/Blow%20Through%20FPR.htm


Different superchargers
http://www.axialflow.com/index.htm


cv carb mods
http://www.turbo-bike.net/Pressurize%20carbs.htm
http://www.streettuned.com.au/index....productId=1494
http://unclebobsturbos.com/newbie.html

building a small efi
http://feralinjection.com/cbr/cbr2.html
http://www.megasquirt.info/
http://www.dune-buggy.com/turbo/fuelsystem.htm

Water injection
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Water...0/article.html

The fang
http://www.thefang.co.uk/news2008.htm

Elsberg tuning home of the supercharged 50 and lots of intersting stuff.
http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/supercharging.html
http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/the%20b...d Honda engine

Intercoolers
http://autospeed.com/cms/A_1931/article.html

Small turbo
http://forums.evolutionm.net/other-c...nything-6.html
http://www.vespalabs.org/User:Intern..._Turbo_Charger


All sorts of technical stuff
http://victorylibrary.com/supercharger/super-c.htm
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Super...4/article.html

udder stuff
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-N...6/article.html
http://www.dune-buggy.com/turbo/turbo_fi_basics.htm
http://not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml
http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=492361027



Intakehttp://victorylibrary.com/supercharg...er-engine5.htm
The intake port’s cross-sectional area is no longer the limiting factor in power production, as is frequently true in engines in a low state of tune or development. Porting as it refers to changes in port shape (rather than mere enlargement) still provides a benefit by reducing parasitic pumping loss during the intake stroke. Intake port size may be kept as original, unless a known and proven modification to the shape (rather than the size) can be performed. Twin cylinder engines may use heads with parallel intake ports such as the TR6 to make the manifold design more compact.
The std. intake port & valve are normally larger than the exhaust port & valve, as the mechanical pressure of the rising piston is more efficient at expelling exhaust gas than the vacuum of the descending piston is at drawing fresh mixture in. If the motor was originally well designed for normally aspirated use, the relative efficiency of flow between the two sides will be nearly equal, in fact differences in cam timing between intake and exhaust frequently have as their purpose to adjust any disparity. This relative flow balance between the intake and exhaust sides is affected by supercharger use: the intake is now much more efficient.

Exhaust
For best effect the entire exhaust system should be re-designed towards a larger displacement motor, requiring more flow from every component. The exhaust system (cam, tappet shape, rocker ratio, valve size, port size & pipe size) is not especially sensitive to the boost itself, but only to the increase in exhaust gas flow, regardless of the source. The “target size” of the exhaust components is roughly based on the amount of boost to be used. For example: a 750cc motor developing 50 HP in normally aspirated tune may develop 75 HP on boost, and should have an exhaust system suitable to (obviously) 75 HP, more like a 1000cc motor. This is especially true since boost adds torque throughout the rpm range, not just peak power. The motor becomes more like a milder but bigger motor, rather than a more powerful “race” version of the same size motor.
The std. exhaust valve size should be increased by between .040” and .060” (1.0mm-1.5mm). The new area (not diameter) should be between 75 & 80% of the intake valve area. In many cases only a slight increase is possible using the original cast-in seat insert but this should still be done.
A large engine and high boost may use a valve as large as 3/16” (4.75mm) oversize. In a serious (high boost) motor, this may require a reduction in the choice of intake valve size as a compromise, since some clearance between the valves is needed not only to prevent clash in operation, but for added cooling of the head casting between the seats. In some cases, an older but interchangable head casting of the same type is a good choice since its intake valves may be smaller (e.g., a 6T head instead of a TR6 head).
For serious high boost applications consideration should be made to replacing the exhaust seat with a larger custom or adapted seat insert to permit a valve as large as 90% of the intake valve area to be fitted. The size will still be limited by the point where the seats almost touch as described.
The exhaust valve head diameter sizes listed below are not requirements but improvements. An engine with insufficient exhaust valve area will not produce as much power due to pumping loss. If you cannot or will not increase the exhaust:intake flow proportion by using larger exhaust valves, most of the improvement can be obtained by changes to the cam timing but this is not as effective.

5 psi Boost: Exhaust = 75% of Intake Area
In. 2.00” 1.95” 1.90” 1.85” 1.80” 1.75” 1.70” 1.65” 1.60” 1.55” 1.50” 1.45” 1.40” 1.35” 1.30” 1.25” 1.20”
Ex. 1.73” 1.69” 1.65” 1.60” 1.56” 1.52” 1.47” 1.43” 1.39” 1.34” 1.30” 1.26” 1.21” 1.17” 1.13” 1.08” 1.04”

10 psi Boost: Exhaust = 80% of Intake Area
In. 2.00” 1.95” 1.90” 1.85” 1.80” 1.75” 1.70” 1.65” 1.60” 1.55” 1.50” 1.45” 1.40” 1.35” 1.30” 1.25” 1.20”
Ex. 1.79” 1.74” 1.70” 1.65” 1.61” 1.57” 1.52” 1.48” 1.43” 1.39” 1.34” 1.30” 1.25” 1.21” 1.16” 1.12” 1.07”

15 psi Boost: Exhaust = 85% of Intake Area
In. 2.00” 1.95” 1.90” 1.85” 1.80” 1.75” 1.70” 1.65” 1.60” 1.55” 1.50” 1.45” 1.40” 1.35” 1.30” 1.25” 1.20”
Ex. 1.84” 1.80” 1.75” 1.71” 1.66” 1.61” 1.57” 1.52” 1.48” 1.43” 1.38” 1.34” 1.29” 1.24” 1.20” 1.15” 1.11”

20 psi Boost: Exhaust = 90% of Intake Area
In. 2.00” 1.95” 1.90” 1.85” 1.80” 1.75” 1.70” 1.65” 1.60” 1.55” 1.50” 1.45” 1.40” 1.35” 1.30” 1.25” 1.20”
Ex. 1.90” 1.85” 1.80” 1.76” 1.71” 1.66” 1.61” 1.57” 1.52” 1.47” 1.42” 1.38” 1.33” 1.28” 1.23” 1.19” 1.14”

The exhaust seat should be 30° (instead of 45°), although this requires a substantial oversize. A 30° seat increases low-lift flow, and the added release of exhaust as the valve just cracks open is very helpful. A 30° seat requires a new valve with a head diameter larger than the original. The amount to be added to the existing valve diameter is not proportionate to the valve size but to the seat width. Why not use a 30° seat on the intake as well? Because intake efficiency is more effectively supplied by boost, and also that the shallow seat will increase overlap effects, which we do not want.
The exhaust valve face width and seat width should be increased somewhat to allow greater heat transfer. I suggest .080” as a minimum. Some additional stem-to-guide clearance may be needed, .001” or so.
After the seats have been cut, the exhaust bowl area should be increased to match the new seat area. In some cases, the edge of the combustion chamber nearest the valve head should be moved back a bit (towards the edge of the bore) to prevent shrouding the valve. The bore (in the cylinder) may also benefit from a notch to permit flow around the valve head - be careful not to intrude into the ring path.
The exhaust port ID should be enlarged proportionate to the new valve size, as practical. In many engines this will seriously weaken the port stub, so use caution. Do not attempt to match the port ID to the primary pipe ID, or even blend or taper the transition area. The change in shape between the port and pipe should be abrupt.

Exhaust Pipe
The diameter of the primary exhaust pipe should be increased, usually by 1/8” to 1/4”, even if the actual port cannot be made larger. The 1-3/4” “TT” (tavern tosser) pipes that didn’t work on the 650cc NA motor are now a good choice for supercharged use. Under no circumstances should any form of internal baffle be inserted. If you need a muffler, find a good one with capacity sized to the new power level rather than the displacement, as described above. An RPM-sensitive tuned primary length will still work but has less effect since both ports are under positive pressure.
[IMG] [/IMG]
Cams
Cams for boosted engines should generally be milder in duration than for normally aspirated engines designed for high peak power. Extended timing is no longer needed to produce peak power, and will interfere with boosted operation. The requirements for positive displacement and centrifugal superchargers differ here.
Adjustments to the intake:exhaust flow balance are frequently made by extending the cam timing on the side with lesser efficiency. Since boost only improves the flow of the intake system, any flow bias change that cannot or has not been made through increased exhaust efficiency (as described above) requires a cam choice with added




weight to exhaust duration, generally 10° more than the intake duration. This frequently means that intake duration is reduced (from normally aspirated) by 10 or 20°, and exhaust duration is reduced by 0 to 10°. E.g., 300° intake & 300° exhaust becomes 280° intake & 290° exhaust.
The intake valve opening point should be retarded (closer to TDC) to reduce overlap. The intake valve closing point should be advanced (closer to BDC), since the static compression ratio will be lower. This preserves cranking compression, and is not as useful for peak power as boost pressure. The result is a shorter intake duration.
The exhaust valve opening and closing points are especially sensitive. The exhaust opening point determines how much of the work cycle is used as energy, the remainder being wasted as heat through the open valve. A supercharged engine develops a higher percentage of its useful work later in the cycle (compared o a high-compression normally aspirated engine), and opening the valve early is throwing away an advantage.
However, keeping the valve closed too long (i.e., closer to BDC) wastes power by requiring additional effort ABDC to expel the remaining exhaust gas.
The opening point is, therefore, a delicate balance, where as the opening point is delayed more of the power is transferred to the crankshaft, but part of it is needed to “push out” the remaining gas. Where this balance point tips depends largely on exhaust valve size. A large exhaust valve allows late opening because a higher volume of gas is released immediately without the need for a longer time interval. If the valve size is not sufficient, the valve must open earlier.
To summarize: exhaust improvements required, in order of preference:
1. larger exhaust valve
2. higher ratio exhaust rocker arm
3. earlier exhaust valve opening.

On engines with separate intake cams (A.J.S., Matchless, Triumph and Royal Enfield twins, Norton, Matchless & AJS singles, BSA “B” & “M” series singles &c.) the original intake cam should be evaluated, possibly at different timing locations, before being replaced. The Harley-Davidson 4-cam engines (45, K, Sportster, UL, &c.) have separate intake and exhaust cams, but cannot be re-timed since the cams are integral with their gears.
The preferred lobe separation angle (intake to exhaust centerlines) is generally wider than used in performance applications, usually between 112-118°.

Cam Terms and Symbols
Term Before top dead center After top dead center Before bottom dead center After bottom dead center
Symbol BTDC ATDC BBDC ABDC
Term Intake valve opens Intake valve closes Exhaust valve opens Exhaust valve closes
Symbol IO, IVO IC, IVC XO, EO, EVO XC, EC, EVC
Term Intake lobe centerline Exhaust lobe centerline Lobe separation angle
Symbol ICL XCL, ECL LSA, LCA

Value Formula Example, using 34-70, 74-26 timing
Intake duration IO + IC + 180° 34 + 70 + 180 = 284°
Exhaust duration XC + XO + 180° 74 + 26 + 180 = 280°
Overlap IO + XC 34 + 26 = 60°
Intake centerline (IC - IO) ÷ 2 + 90° ATDC 70 - 34 = 36; 36 ÷ 2 = 18; 18 + 90 = 108°
Exhaust centerline (XO - XC) ÷ 2 + 90° BTDC 74 - 26 = 48; 48 ÷ 2 = 24; 24 + 90 = 114°
Lobe separation angle (ICL + XCL) ÷ 2 108 + 114 = 222; 222 ÷ 2 = 111°
Please note that overlap may be evenly disposed around TDC (e.g., IO = XC), but this is not always true. The LSA is frequently different from where the cam is “timed in”. There is no magic figure for any of these values, only tendencies. The LSA is used as a control to prevent overlap from becoming too large when the duration of the intake,




exhaust, or both lobes are extended. Under ideal conditions, boost pressure will “flush” exhaust gas from the chamber during the overlap period, but this is sensitive to RPM and careful tuning and is not present at all speeds. Click the picture for a larger view. Engines with mild cams may work best with the original LSA. On engines with individual cams for intake and exhaust this can be done by re-timing at least one cam. On engines with both intake and exhaust lobes on a single camshaft such as BSA and Norton twins (including Norton-based Matchless), BSA “C” series singles, triples, and Harley-Davidson big twins, as well as other engine which do not readily permit re-timing individual cams LSA is a fixed value requiring a new cam.
In a Triumph twin engine with the original cams consider slightly biasing the event towards the exhaust side by using “R” radius tappets on the exhaust cams only, and std. radius tappets on the intake cams. Tappet radius can be used to make fine adjustments to any cam event.

The exhaust event should also be sped up. This is difficult in most motorcycle engines, but where possible a higher ratio rocker arm should be used on the exhaust valves only. Some engines can use offset rocker buttons for the same effect.

Valve springs
The valve spring tension, both when the valves are seated and open, is normally a function of maximum engine speed, valve train component weight, and the rate at which the cam opens and closes the valves. To this must be added some compensation for the fact that, under boost, intake charge pressure will oppose the intake valve’s closing. Vizard suggests that a useful figure is 75% of the intake valve area (OD × .7854) multiplied by the maximum boost pressure. E.g., a 1.50” intake valve has an area of 1.767”. With 10 psi boost, the figure becomes 17.7 lbs.; 75% of this is roughly 13 lbs. Add this amount to the seated pressure.

Bummer yours is SOHC but there is the cam timing here for most of the available stuff to suit the engine.
http://www.x386.net/TTR/tech/cam2.html

I will chuck in some Stuff from a guy who build blown Street motors and some stuff that include some oddball blower stuff

[Grumph]

Exhaust - Big bore, short, and most definitely not a tuned length....any attempt at a tuned length is a waste of time as there are effectively no reverse pulses at all in a blown system.
Exhaust valve - leave it stock with a wider seat than stock to at least try & get rid of some heat....
Cam overlap. I quoted the Alfa 158/159 way back. 1.5liter straight eight making around 480bhp on alky late '40's early 50's.
It used a LOT of overlap - they called it the 5th stroke - which gave a blow through period which cooled the head and valves off significantly. The slightly later BRM also used plenty of overlap. Those two were effectively the last real developments of mechanically blown F1 motors. Drag V8's - Garlits I've seen quoted as continually asking for more cam duration...on his big 2V hemis he'd worked out that short duration and overlap weren't the way to go.
Personally, I was involved with a blown TQ which really came to life when I talked them into a better cam....they'd read and believed the crap about short cams....
Oh, while I think about it - you will probably need a better inlet valve spring...to hold it shut against boost. Exhaust won't be a problem, the valve will melt before the springs give trouble.....

[Sketchy_Racer]

Well temptation got the better of me and I couldn't help but fire it up now that all the electronics have been taken care of. Started pretty easy I thought and runs good, well for a first start, no missing or farting.

Glad I did as has given me a bit more motovation to get it finished

Also I'm on the look out for a RGV250 tank VJ21 if anyone knows of one, mine has had a hard life and I don't want the rusty shit inside making a mess of the injection system. I was thinking I may just cut the bottom out and run a 2L plastic tank under it.

So I got the belt pulleys machined up tonight, still have to broach the charger pulley but they have come out well. I am running a 4PK poly vee belt which is 15mm wide with 4 vee's. The pulley is 60mm diameter and the charger is running 1:1 with the motor. In theory is should make 15psi at that.

Here's a shit house video of the startup but it's cool to hear one of the first non factory fuel injected bucket startup.



And a couple of pictures of the pulleys



Cheers,

-Sketchy

[bucketracer]

Super duper congrats Bucket History X 2, fuel injected and supercharged.

[Buddha#81:Me]

shit man get a haircut!

[k14]

shit man get a haircut!

Beat me to it!

[Sketchy_Racer]

shit man get a haircut!

Beat me to it!

Fark off, it's winter and the afro keeps me warm

[Brian d marge]

Super duper congrats Bucket History X 2, fuel injected and supercharged.

plus one on that , well done for seeing it through !

Stephen

ps must spread the luv ..etc

[Skunk]

Fark off, it's winter and the afro keeps me warm

Where's ya side burns gone Guy Martin?

[speights_bud]

Good stuff bro, are you going to trepan (sp?) or drill out the belt pulleys to reduce weight? would look choice too

[Grumph]

Well done.

Can't pick from the small pics but I assume you've trimmed the peaks on the pulleys...

I'd still like to know the std cam timing figures for the longshit.

A quick scan of all the bumf Husaberg added to his post doesn't make me want to go back and change mine. i know what I have recommended will work.....

[Sketchy_Racer]

Super duper congrats Bucket History X 2, fuel injected and supercharged.

Cheers, still a long way to go before it is anything good, but it goes at least

plus one on that , well done for seeing it through !

Stephen

ps must spread the luv ..etc

Thanks mate.

Good stuff bro, are you going to trepan (sp?) or drill out the belt pulleys to reduce weight? would look choice too

Yeah mate I'll carve them out gotta make em look cool!

Well done.

Can't pick from the small pics but I assume you've trimmed the peaks on the pulleys...

I'd still like to know the std cam timing figures for the longshit.

A quick scan of all the bumf Husaberg added to his post doesn't make me want to go back and change mine. i know what I have recommended will work.....

Yep the pulleys are relieved to stop any chance of the belt getting damaged by the peaks.

I'll have a measure up on the weekend and let you know what the stock cam profile is. There are certainly a lot of arguments towards different cam timing and their reasoning, but if what you have tried works, then all the theory in the world doesn't mean shit if it doesn't work in the real world. I am probably going to experiment with the cam profiles mainly because it interests me and to see what gains are found where.

Cheers,

-Sketchy

[husaberg]

Very Nice Glen Very nice.
are you sure the project should Be on KB cause it look like you are intending on getting it finished

The last link gave a lot of the Honda style timings but not the one sketchy has shame
This is the What fits what page http://www.dratv.com/encoon.html

I still stand by the statement. its all right cramming the mixture in but it still has to have the time to leave the cylinder.
ie you can fill the pint Glass with another pint until how have got rid of all the first pint.

I found the Turbo Commando that the CHCH guy did photocopy only sorry.

[Grumph]

Okay, Hus, nothing I posted is in direct conflict with that lot....I'm advocating getting better exhaust flow with a better cam rather than using oversize exhaust valve. That lot reads like the author has a lot of sprinting experience - eg the Triumph info which is typical of the Brit sprint scene. Incidentally, I didn't see any reference to fuels though I didn't open any of the other attatchments. When using Methanol you must go to a higher percentage of exhaust flow vs the inlet anyway as the cooler/denser end gases flow slower.
This project is on petrol and end gas speed will be high. Yes, valve size is small. Without looking at the chink head i don't know if there's enough material spporting the seat ring to allow a larger valve safely - it WILL get f'n hot - particularly as it's horizontal. Easier and safer IMO to get the effect wanted with the cam.
Having been involved on the edges of a blown Triumph TQ - National Champ too - I disagree with some of the articles statements re those motors too....
Maybe I am just a grump but it's easy to put stuff up on the net if you don't have to back it up - not you Hus, the author.
I've been involved directly and indirectly with 3 blown TQ's and one roadrace bike plus several cars....all bar the roadrace bike were successful and the bike made the power but couldn't be made reliably raceable.

[F5 Dave]

Well you have heaps of time till Sunday to get it sorted & get out to Kaitoke. Sweet as bro.