Forced induction 100cc

[Sketchy_Racer]

yeah re the drive i was think like the electric clutch on some fans and the 4ag supercharged engine i think the super turbo March also had something tricky.
Out of interest what psi were you getting with the 120?cc engine?.

i seem remember the fuel map for a twin (i think this came from the CHCH turbo Norton i posted with a link ecu) is way more complex than a 4 so i guess the single would be even more so .

I was getting 7psi with a 100cc motor at a 1:1 drive ratio. It was running at 10psi until it got a little hot and scored up one of the rotors.

Sounds heavy. What's the hp requirement for the blower drive? How does a suitable AC generator/AC motor drive compare for mass? You'd get to accurately and easilly define motor/blower revs. Including on the fly, during a race. You also get to mount the blower wherever you want.

Can you organise an extra output from an ECU to control an AC drive?

The CVT isn't for the supercharger it is for the engine gearbox, so I can hold the motor at peak power and fix the supercharger RPM for desired boost pressure and efficiency point. The CVT will run in the original engine gearbox housing with a sliding selector fork driven by a stepper motor that will be controlled via a computer to aim for a target engine RPM and adjust the selector fork position to chase that target.

[Ocean1]

The CVT isn't for the supercharger it is for the engine gearbox, so I can hold the motor at peak power and fix the supercharger RPM for desired boost pressure and efficiency point. The CVT will run in the original engine gearbox housing with a sliding selector fork driven by a stepper motor that will be controlled via a computer to aim for a target engine RPM and adjust the selector fork position to chase that target.

Ahh, makes sense. How did you plan on driving the blower, multiple gears off the crank?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Ahh, makes sense. How did you plan on driving the blower, multiple gears off the crank?

Nah just a belt like the last one, the charger has it's own gearbox inside for gaining the RPM

But, like I say first I want to achieve building a good supercharger capable of good boost pressures and efficiency. Then, I will see how hard I push this little chinese motor before it shits itself.

[husaberg]

I was getting 7psi with a 100cc motor at a 1:1 drive ratio. It was running at 10psi until it got a little hot and scored up one of the rotors.



The CVT isn't for the supercharger it is for the engine gearbox, so I can hold the motor at peak power and fix the supercharger RPM for desired boost pressure and efficiency point. The CVT will run in the original engine gearbox housing with a sliding selector fork driven by a stepper motor that will be controlled via a computer to aim for a target engine RPM and adjust the selector fork position to chase that target.

Sounds like you can whip it up in your smoko break
I had set this to (mike i think) ages ago.
The drive looks remarkably like a fish tank filter where it is driven without mechanical contact.
I have a site saved somewhere with an electric supercharger (one that actually works) i think it had about 6 beefy electric engines and was good for like 1 minute. imagine the alternator drag to power it.(bloody can't find it )

PS if anyone know's why the highlighting of text always moves please let me know.

some intersting links
http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=29536
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html
http://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/og...28-153977.html
http://www.axialflow.com/products.htm

[Ocean1]

Nah just a belt like the last one, the charger has it's own gearbox inside for gaining the RPM

OK, sounds fairly straight forward, anything fancy required to keep the blower case pressure from invading the blower gearbox?

[Sketchy_Racer]

OK, sounds fairly straight forward, anything fancy required to keep the blower case pressure from invading the blower gearbox?

Nope, I am just using a oil slinger (like what they used to use on old car engine rear seals) to keep the oil in the supercharger. There will be very little oil in the charger, just enough to keep the rollers lubed but not enough to create drag on the outer annulus drive ring.

When I get home I will make an exploded view of the pictures I posted earlier and explain which part does what as it is hard to see from the cross section photos.

[speedpro]

I never did try the 3 lobe rotors but it would be interesting to see how that works. If Mike is keen I will send it up for him to have a play with it but I'm hoping he will turbo his one.

I already have a 2-lobe/rotor supercharger from a kit for Suzuki Cappucinos. It's only 300cc/rev so if I go for supercharging I'll use that. Lobe wise it's in good nick but I had to replace all the bearings and file the gears clean as I think it had been run low on oil. My problem will be where to put it and the drive system. I don't have the gear or skills to fabricate anything to fancy.

[speedpro]

Regarding electric drive for the blower. I think the power requirements will put paid to that idea. Check out the size of say a 2hp motor, make it 12V and then consider the current needed - lots. Intermittently it could come from a battery, especially something like a LiFePO4. I suppose model aeroplane gear could be adopted as they use variable speed electric in their models now. Anyone who went to Tokoroa a few years ago would have seen a few good examples.

[Sketchy_Racer]

I already have a 2-lobe/rotor supercharger from a kit for Suzuki Cappucinos. It's only 300cc/rev so if I go for supercharging I'll use that. Lobe wise it's in good nick but I had to replace all the bearings and file the gears clean as I think it had been run low on oil. My problem will be where to put it and the drive system. I don't have the gear or skills to fabricate anything to fancy.

Sweet, yeah the AMR300 will work well with your motor. If you need any machine work done from drawings let me know, I can make stuff and mail it up for you.

[husaberg]

Sounds like you can whip it up in your smoko break
I had set this to (mike i think) ages ago.
The drive looks remarkably like a fish tank filter where it is driven without mechanical contact.
I have a site saved somewhere with an electric supercharger (one that actually works) i think it had about 6 beefy electric engines and was good for like 1 minute. imagine the alternator drag to power it.(bloody can't find it )

PS if anyone know's why the highlighting of text always moves please let me know.

some intersting links
http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=29536
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html
http://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/og...28-153977.html
http://www.axialflow.com/products.htm

Regarding electric drive for the blower. I think the power requirements will put paid to that idea. Check out the size of say a 2hp motor, make it 12V and then consider the current needed - lots. Intermittently it could come from a battery, especially something like a LiFePO4. I suppose model aeroplane gear could be adopted as they use variable speed electric in their models now. Anyone who went to Tokoroa a few years ago would have seen a few good examples.

yes (highlighted) i think it was all up 12 kw electric motors for a very small boost for a very small duration) i was before that, mentioning electromagnetic clutch for engagement only. The attachment i posted "is only a spool up motor" so very little power is actually required. because it doesn't produce any real pressure at those rpm's(threrefore requires very little power) but it would certainly reduce the lag of turbo designed for a 660cc engine on a 100cc engine.


this is the one i was thinking of not practical obviously i actually thought it had more electric motors but it drains the battery in mere seconds.

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/04..._supercharger/

[ducatilover]

I've been playing with the elec blower idea in my head for yonks, always thought an RHB31 would work well in the application. Probelem though, I don't think my charging systems can handle the load (maybe on the DR600-GN?)

[Sketchy_Racer]

Electric will work, but it will add significant weight and complexity, the only gain would be control. You could use an electronics package to control the boost curve.

As for power requirements you need to look at the energy draw of a mechanically driven supercharger which lets say is 20% of the engines total output at peak power. So a boosted motor making 20Kw at the crank will be loosing 4Kw to drive the charger. In an electric driven one, the draw would be theoretically the same if the charging system and electric motor were 100% efficient, but they aren't so what would be a 20% parasitic loss would suddenly become much more, probably closer to 30% depending on the setup, not to mention the extra mass needed for a good size alternator and a 4000W electric motor which would have to be made from a multi setup like the one pictured earlier.

The only way it could work which would be very difficult, would be to create a system such as KERS (Kinetic enercy recovery system) that is used on the formula 1 cars. The system uses an generator/motor set that is used as a generator under braking conditions which charge battery then when needed the generator is then turned into a motor to help drive the motor. The other system uses a flywheel which is spun to store the kinetic energy.

All really interesting but very hard to make practical on a bucket bike

[ducatilover]

Great info thanks.

I know there have been several drag cars that successfully run elec chargers, but they're big scale with big, big motors. I'd love to have some forced induction on my DR600 motor, but a Turbo won't cut it and I'm not smart enough to design a blower set up.

I think I'll just keep reading this awesomeness whilst collecting the bits to get an RHB5 on the ZX6 (one of these days...140hp will be mine)

[husaberg]

I've been playing with the elec blower idea in my head for yonks, always thought an RHB31 would work well in the application. Probelem though, I don't think my charging systems can handle the load (maybe on the DR600-GN?)

Mass air storage would be an easier solution........................

The only way it could work which would be very difficult, would be to create a system such as KERS (Kinetic enercy recovery system) that is used on the formula 1 cars. The system uses an generator/motor set that is used as a generator under braking conditions which charge battery then when needed the generator is then turned into a motor to help drive the motor. The other system uses a flywheel which is spun to store the kinetic energy.

All really interesting but very hard to make practical on a bucket bike

i thought the KERS uses the stored flywheel inertia to directly propel the actual engine with a one way clutch.

the Telma electric eddy current (Used on Dumpers etc)is another more direct option which use a eddy currents generator to dispate speed they as far as i know dissipate the energy to heat directly rather than friction, but that could be another form of co-generation.(that is turning breaking force directly in electricity rather than heat)
but as you say impractical solution at the moment.

Actually it could make a nice dyno.

seen this one which is intersting
hydraulic accumulator capable of holding hydraulic fluid at pressures of about 3000-5000 PSI (these are baked).

You can use this pressure to assist the spool-up of a slightly modified turbocharger incorporating a small turbine on the coupling shaft. Some jet engines use a hydraulic starter in a similar fashion.

This idea seems like it would work well, for a few times at least. What happens when the pressure is gone? There in lies the beauty of the system. The car's movement over bumpy terrain would cause the shocks to generate the pressure needed. Using a series of check valves the flow of hydraulic fluid leaving the turbo would enter the shock absorber and then be pumped under pressure back into the accumulator.

[ducatilover]

Mass air storage would be an easier solution........................

A hose from my mouth to the carb would work a treat then