Forced induction 100cc

[speights_bud]

Awesome reading,

used to make similar parts at my old job, except 6" Diameter lobes and made from food grade stainless steel. just so happens the promo video on this page wanks on about them: http://www.we-can.co.nz/

They are a delicate setup, the ceramic seals alone are a couple thousand per pump (about 2" Dia), although the clearance's are slightly bigger than what you are talking about at 0.05 to 0.08 per side of the rotor on the housings. the lobe to lobe clearance was 0.15 to 0.20. these are for pumping fluids around dairy factorys etc.

Makes a hell of a mess of the housings when the clearances aren't right and the lobe pick up on the body, or when the fitter at the plant drops his spanner and it ends up going through the new one you just built

-->Just been reading back through the thread, although the lobes we made had splines, the helical gears in the back which timed and drove them were often mounted using the taper lock method, depended on the brand of pump as the the method.

[Grumph]

If your only running moderate levels of boost how much of a difference is an air to air charge cooler going to make especially at lower speeds? You could water jacket the supercharger itself if its just running temps your worries about, there is a weld on kit for my eaton that puts a water jacket over the plenum with a circulating pump and a wee radiator.

It's a catch 22 situation - he can't run mild boost, he's got to push the envelope to try and be competitive. This can lead as I found to complication and it's partner in crime - weight...
With a 100, the target is already 300bhp/liter - on petrol. And the better FXR's and 2 strokes are lighter.

Some years back I thought about doing one but when alky got dropped as an allowable fuel for the "open" 100cc fourstrokes I said no, not feasible. Alky worked on several levels - the main one was internal cooling which just made things so much easier.

The Loncin is probably going to melt valves anyway.....

[Sketchy_Racer]

If your only running moderate levels of boost how much of a difference is an air to air charge cooler going to make especially at lower speeds? You could water jacket the supercharger itself if its just running temps your worries about, there is a weld on kit for my eaton that puts a water jacket over the plenum with a circulating pump and a wee radiator.

Surprisingly, it only takes around 35kph of air flow to have massive affects on cooling, I vaguely remember reading about it early in the ESE thread where they are trying to maximise cooling on a 125cc air cooled motor.

I do love the idea of internally cooling the pump, that would be massively beneficial as it's where a lot of the heat is introduced. Wouldn't need a pump either, thermosypon would work great for that sort of application.

Awesome reading,

used to make similar parts at my old job, except 6" Diameter lobes and made from food grade stainless steel. just so happens the promo video on this page wanks on about them: http://www.we-can.co.nz/

They are a delicate setup, the ceramic seals alone are a couple thousand per pump (about 2" Dia), although the clearance's are slightly bigger than what you are talking about at 0.05 to 0.08 per side of the rotor on the housings. the lobe to lobe clearance was 0.15 to 0.20. these are for pumping fluids around dairy factorys etc.

Makes a hell of a mess of the housings when the clearances aren't right and the lobe pick up on the body, or when the fitter at the plant drops his spanner and it ends up going through the new one you just built

-->Just been reading back through the thread, although the lobes we made had splines, the helical gears in the back which timed and drove them were often mounted using the taper lock method, depended on the brand of pump as the the method.

Hey champ, was wondering if you would pop in here.

Thanks for the insight to the pumps, I forgot you used to make those things. I suppose that with pumping fluid there is going to be less leakage than air (which is fluid also i guess)

I might need to hit you up about some gear info, don't know whats the best option for the drive gears.

[Sketchy_Racer]

It's a catch 22 situation - he can't run mild boost, he's got to push the envelope to try and be competitive. This can lead as I found to complication and it's partner in crime - weight...
With a 100, the target is already 300bhp/liter - on petrol. And the better FXR's and 2 strokes are lighter.

Some years back I thought about doing one but when alky got dropped as an allowable fuel for the "open" 100cc fourstrokes I said no, not feasible. Alky worked on several levels - the main one was internal cooling which just made things so much easier.

The Loncin is probably going to melt valves anyway.....

Nooo, I can't imagine the mighty Chinese motor shitting itself with 1Bar boost stuffed down it.... (I'm taking bets as to which part fails first)

Eitherway, if it does melt a head a new one with valves and cam etc is $60

Now back to the idea of intercooling and the problems with a draw through setup. I started to have a hunt around for fuel injection kits and found what looks pretty good

http://www.ecotrons.com/Small_Engine...o_PNP_kit.html

It's not to bad priced, lets me tune it how I like and suited to boost applications, also gives me ignition control which is cool, I was looking at using an Ignitech but may try this instead. What ya think?

Also thinking about the picture of the Peugeot scooter intercooler, the reason I think the intercooler can lack a bit of flow is because the plenum is going to be mounted after the intercooler naturally but the motor is drawing from the plenum in gulps 1 time every 2 rotations of the crank yet the supercharge is supplying boost continuously so allowing time to fill the plenum again. Maybe a bogus idea but I think EFI will be the best bet in the long run, also makes it possible to have a blowoff valve to compensate for excess boost (not to mention I'll have a bucket that goes PSSH)

[speights_bud]

Hey champ, was wondering if you would pop in here.

Thanks for the insight to the pumps, I forgot you used to make those things. I suppose that with pumping fluid there is going to be less leakage than air (which is fluid also i guess)

I might need to hit you up about some gear info, don't know whats the best option for the drive gears.

yea given fluid is denser than air I'd expect it to have more of a sealing effect, most of the pumps moved around milk solids, yoghurt, mince etc. but they were all pretty much the same tolerancing regardless of the application.

I just had a look at your exploded model, the pumps we made were laid out a bit different, they had the drive shafts out the back of your main housing, so on the 'font' you just have a plain flat plate. this made re-building easier to dress if it gets damaged, as you just skim the plate, mill the body pocket claning up the bottom face and make the lobes to the new housing depth.

Then you had to shim out the lobes against the bearings behind the body as they never replaced the shafts. i'll see if i can find a picture somewhere.

some used straight cut gears at the back to drive which would be cheaper for you to work with, or even find from a suitable gearbox. but most used Helical gears. I would assume that you have a set centre distance between the shafts as you have already made the lobes. the gears can be fudged to suit, quick formula, to see what might be close:

OD Gear:
(Number of teeth + 2) Divided by the MOD.

MOD (Modular) ->Metric
DP (Diametral Pitch) ->Imperial.

Start with metric and see where you get.

You'd want it fairly smooth running, so more teeth the better. then you need to look into tooth clearances etc, theres probably a simulator/calculator on the net that'll do all this for you in a second. It's a bit late and im workin off the top of me head

bearings were two taper roller bearings per shaft, locked up by a ring nut behing the gears on the back of each shaft.

This'll make no sense to me when i read it tomorrow so i'll correct it then.

Hers a web page which should allow you to do all your calc's: http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drive/Gears.html

You could either 4th axis 3d the gears you want or turn your blanks and send them to we-can, should be about 2hours work to setup and hob blanks max.

[speights_bud]

Find a wrecked Suzuki UZ125, bugger i sold the one i wrecked they are fuel injected and i figured i'd never get around to using it on a bucket so sold the lot! damn.

[Sketchy_Racer]

yea given fluid is denser than air I'd expect it to have more of a sealing effect, most of the pumps moved around milk solids, yoghurt, mince etc. but they were all pretty much the same tolerancing regardless of the application.

I just had a look at your exploded model, the pumps we made were laid out a bit different, they had the drive shafts out the back of your main housing, so on the 'font' you just have a plain flat plate. this made re-building easier to dress if it gets damaged, as you just skim the plate, mill the body pocket claning up the bottom face and make the lobes to the new housing depth.

Then you had to shim out the lobes against the bearings behind the body as they never replaced the shafts. i'll see if i can find a picture somewhere.

some used straight cut gears at the back to drive which would be cheaper for you to work with, or even find from a suitable gearbox. but most used Helical gears. I would assume that you have a set centre distance between the shafts as you have already made the lobes. the gears can be fudged to suit, quick formula, to see what might be close:

OD Gear:
(Number of teeth + 2) Divided by the MOD.

MOD (Modular) ->Metric
DP (Diametral Pitch) ->Imperial.

Start with metric and see where you get.

You'd want it fairly smooth running, so more teeth the better. then you need to look into tooth clearances etc, theres probably a simulator/calculator on the net that'll do all this for you in a second. It's a bit late and im workin off the top of me head

bearings were two taper roller bearings per shaft, locked up by a ring nut behing the gears on the back of each shaft.

This'll make no sense to me when i read it tomorrow so i'll correct it then.

Hers a web page which should allow you to do all your calc's: http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drive/Gears.html

You could either 4th axis 3d the gears you want or turn your blanks and send them to we-can, should be about 2hours work to setup and hob blanks max.

Yeah i've had a look on the google machine at some of the roots style fluid pumps and I know what you mean with the shaft layout, like you say great for rebuilds however requires a larger pump as the shafts have to be supported. My design is stolen off a AMR300 supercharger which is for a small car but I will still use shims to set the end float and clearance for each rotor.

Yeah for the gears I am looking at between 30 - 40 tooth, the pitch dia is 38mm.

The only bugger is that we only have a 1.5MOD cutter at work which is only any good for a 20-25 tooth gear. So means some 3d milling might come into play.

I was thinking just bronze for the gears but worry that they will wear quickly and allow the lobes to touch? What ya recon.

Find a wrecked Suzuki UZ125, bugger i sold the one i wrecked they are fuel injected and i figured i'd never get around to using it on a bucket so sold the lot! damn.

Would have been good but not to much of a loss as I would still need to buy some sort of kit to allow me to tune it and the injector would probably have been to small for the supercharged motor. So all good but cheers for the thought man.

[carburator]

your probably could get away with a ali nickel bronze for the gears ive used it for high load low rev's
applications and its done well..

my littlefeild blower ended up with a set as the steel ones cracked for some reason that i never figured out
nor really was that interested in finding out..

interesting that the fuild pumps have angular bearings in them? we only ran straight race bearings in the blower
shim for end float of the lobes else you have a huge drag ( powerloss ) assoicatied with preload on a angular bearing

Im kind of interested in everyone getting on the bandwagon about intercooling first off i really can't see you being
able to run high PSI on that chink motor even if you decompress it..

admittly ive build more low compression high boost motors than high compression low boost ones but that later
perform very well and to some degree are more stable.

one thing we did play with rather late in the forced induction game is water to air intercoolers
however our water tank was enathol with dry ice and I can tell you from personal experice it works
that well it gives wicked cold burns! ( also we used it to shrink bearings into housings )

[speights_bud]

your probably could get away with a ali nickel bronze for the gears ive used it for high load low rev's
applications and its done well..

my littlefeild blower ended up with a set as the steel ones cracked for some reason that i never figured out
nor really was that interested in finding out..

interesting that the fuild pumps have angular bearings in them? we only ran straight race bearings in the blower
shim for end float of the lobes else you have a huge drag ( powerloss ) assoicatied with preload on a angular bearing

Yep, once a bit of load came on the bearings the fluid pumps put up a bit of resistance, so def worth looking at a different bearing setup, the pumps were driven off big electric motors so a little drag didn't worry them too much. have you looked into using telfon sleeves? They are mich lighter than a conventional bearing & probably similar in price or cheaper. we used them in our glue pumps, they run pretty hot pumping melted hot glue at the packaging factories and lasted ages when running with a hardened EN36a shaft.

I'd agree that the Ali Bronze should make a good set of gears. although its harder its slightly more prone to picking up than the lead bronze, depending on if they will be lubricated the lead bronze might be worth looking at, its also cheaper. The fluid pumps use hardened EN39b, mostly cost and strength as the loading/torque is quite high. are they being lubricated at all when running? you'll find in most reduction gearboxes the large worm wheel is usually a big piece of bronze, and it's often the hard steel worm that'll wear just as badly.

[carburator]

Yep, once a bit of load came on the bearings the fluid pumps put up a bit of resistance, so def worth looking at a different bearing setup, the pumps were driven off big electric motors so a little drag didn't worry them too much. have you looked into using telfon sleeves? They are mich lighter than a conventional bearing & probably similar in price or cheaper. we used them in our glue pumps, they run pretty hot pumping melted hot glue at the packaging factories and lasted ages when running with a hardened EN36a shaft.

I'd agree that the Ali Bronze should make a good set of gears. although its harder its slightly more prone to picking up than the lead bronze, depending on if they will be lubricated the lead bronze might be worth looking at, its also cheaper. The fluid pumps use hardened EN39b, mostly cost and strength as the loading/torque is quite high. are they being lubricated at all when running? you'll find in most reduction gearboxes the large worm wheel is usually a big piece of bronze, and it's often the hard steel worm that'll wear just as badly.

what he needs to do is hollow out the front cover, add a breather and a fill point and stick the timing gears in there
and hey presto old school GMC blower

Oh it was menathol and dryice for shrinking bearings and used as a water to air cooler combo
( must not kiwibike when tired.. )

[Grumph]

On the Martin blowers one end of the case had the bearings on the inside of the end plate - normal journal ballraces, running sealed.
The other - drive - end had seals and bearings outside in the gear cavity. Endfloat set by shimming at the drive end.

I can't believe you didn't design it around an available gear pair.....you're a glutton for punishment mate..Yeah, straight cut bronze will last longer than the motor...

That injection setup looks feasible.

Have you looked at Irvings Automobile Engine Tuning ? The old bugger knew a few things and there's quite a bit in there about blowing singles.

[Paul in NZ]

Um - just a left field question but....

Could you use another cylinder as the compressor ie - a split single type arrangement? Use a Honda 200 twin and use one side to force feed the other type deal?

[ducatilover]

Um - just a left field question but....

Could you use another cylinder as the compressor ie - a split single type arrangement? Use a Honda 200 twin and use one side to force feed the other type deal?

Would depend on the crank I suppose, if the pulse is at the right time, it can work rather well.
I'm looking in to electric turbo/supercharging systems, but finding relevant info on ones that work is not so easy, most of the info out there is from retards whom have put those stupid computer fan esque/weed blowers on their intakes

[bogan]

CM200 would it be? Think the pistons are in-phase, you'd have to run some sort of accumulator tank anyway, possibly tune the length of it for good results.
Electric blowers are shit, you're essentially replacing a belt with a motor, generator, and circuitry.

[Paul in NZ]

Would depend on the crank I suppose, if the pulse is at the right time, it can work rather well.
I'm looking in to electric turbo/supercharging systems, but finding relevant info on ones that work is not so easy, most of the info out there is from retards whom have put those stupid computer fan esque/weed blowers on their intakes

Why not just use a compressed air tank?