There's still some things need sorting but it's getting better

[scrivy]

I can tell you for fact had the club officials actually SEEN this happen the person concerned would have been dealt with.
Its difficult to punish someone when its one persons word against another.

That's why it's imperitive that we have great flaggies, and a proper system of disciplne.

BUT, saying that - remember the Stroud/Rees incident at Manfeild - using an inexperienced flaggie as the main reason for Strouds relegation...... We all need to be brought up to speed.

[FROSTY:Me]

That's why it's imperitive that we have great flaggies, and a proper system of disciplne.
BUT, saying that - remember the Stroud/Rees incident at Manfeild - using an inexperienced flaggie as the main reason for Strouds relegation...... We all need to be brought up to speed.

ACTUALLY-- um not wanting to scratch a VERY old sore. Some of us have been argueing for many years that the "kink" is a corner and therefore needs to be effectively marshalled for EVERY meeting.
I have a number of reasons for thinking this
If the kink has no marshals then the next marshal point back from the hairpin is castrol -1.km back
That means that the first time a racer knows about an incident at the hairpin is waved flags at the hairpin.
No marshall no matter how good their eyes are can see back to an infringement at the kink -or from castrol for that matter.
I must say I have never personally seen anyone actually CRASH at the kink but Ive seen a few "comings together"

[MSTRS:Me]

ACTUALLY-- um not wanting to scratch a VERY old sore. Some of us have been argueing for many years that the "kink" is a corner and therefore needs to be effectively marshalled for EVERY meeting.
I have a number of reasons for thinking this
If the kink has no marshals then the next marshal point back from the hairpin is castrol -1.km back
That means that the first time a racer knows about an incident at the hairpin is waved flags at the hairpin.
No marshall no matter how good their eyes are can see back to an infringement at the kink -or from castrol for that matter.
I must say I have never personally seen anyone actually CRASH at the kink but Ive seen a few "comings together"

Is the kink the right-hander as one approaches the hairpin? Because if so - where the F would any marshal/point be? There is nowhere I can think of. Besides, FP3 is very close and covers the area quite well.

[FROSTY:Me]

Is the kink the right-hander as one approaches the hairpin? Because if so - where the F would any marshal/point be? There is nowhere I can think of. Besides, FP3 is very close and covers the area quite well.

The "kink" is at about the 5/8 mark on the back "straight"
sorry mon I disagree 100% .
Have a look at
http://www.wises.co.nz/l/pukekohe+pa...174.921087/17/
Have a look at the back "straight"
Can you see where the flag point should be and why?

I don't know if you will remember that the pukie back straight is double the lenth of either one at the minefeild.
The marshal point has been used for the nationals very effectively

[MSTRS:Me]

Oooops - I thought we were talking about Manfeild...

But if you mean there is no marshal point between the hairpin at the 'top' of the link, and the hairpin at the bottom, then I believe you are right and there should be one at the end of the wall right near the Station Rd/Yates Rd corner.

Incidently, I have never been to Puke...I base the above on a look at the google image overhead

[suzuki21]

What about people that try and block people on corner entries ON PURPOSE that qualified 4sec a lap faster. As well as being wankey its dangerous.

[scracha]

What about people that try and block people on corner entries ON PURPOSE that qualified 4sec a lap faster. As well as being wankey its dangerous.

Not sure what you mean? I thought that was called racing?

[suzuki21]

Not sure what you mean? I thought that was called racing?

Sorry, I didnt realise it was ok for a slow rider to brake, swerve in front off, and block someone who isnt even braking because they are far faster.

[scrivy]

Sorry, I didnt realise it was ok for a slow rider to brake, swerve in front off, and block someone who isnt even braking because they are far faster.

You mean a fast rider ........

No, that's the sort of shit that should be sending people home. That shit kills.

[Billy]

Do the instructors have to be accredited trainers? Or will it be the same 'old boys club' as usual?

I like the idea, but if it's done half arsed it's a waste of time.

Four different orginisations you've mentioned there, is there any standardised curriculum they have to adhere?

Do current superbike riders need to do the course to carry on racing?

Yeah I'm a negative cunt, I do it on purpose!

I would think the instructors would have too be screened by MNZ first,But that said as Ive already stated some of the other clubs already have a good process in place and are looking at improving what they already have.

Definitely will not be an old boys club system,The instructors would have too be cleared by MNZ as stated above,Not the clubs and yes there would have too be a standardised system,

Most current superbike/600 riders would be alright too carry on,But those that do the dumb stuff mentioned elsewhere consistently,May be required to take on a mentor for a specified time frame.

[Billy]

Hi Billy,

I've read through all this.... phew!!
Safety should be paramount in all racers minds, I totally agree!

The rules at present allow a bucket racer to upgrade to a Superbike or F1 Sidecar and race at the Nats as long as they have 3 stamps in their logbooks. Absolutely crazy! But it’s still allowed.
But there are also other issues with the licensing - eg. do we ever check for colour blindness? Can people tell a green flag from a yellow or red flag? (Believe me, I know of a past racer that can't).

The Pro-rider or similar training can’t be bad thing, but please make sure it's not the only silver bullet we all want, and think will be the answer to this thread on safety issues.

I know of some very experienced riders that have caused some monumental crashes in the past. Steve Bron at Wanganui, and Pete the Pirate at Wanganui also. Both guys have raced for years - but caused crashes that quite simply could have killed more people. (PLEASE do not take this as a 'point the finger' at those two guys only), they are just some examples of experienced guys that fucked up in the heat of racing. Everybody fucks up at some point. Myself included I admit.
My issue with racers and the current system, is that if you ask a dozen of them a question on circuit procedures or safety, you’ll more than likely get 5 or 6 different replies back. Some of them common sense replies, some just absurd! (As you’ve read in this thread – again no finger pointing).
In qualifying at one race meeting a few years back, I was almost taken out by 3 competitors that did some crazy shit things, and they were oblivious to the perils of their actions! As a result, I did no more qualifying so I didn’t have to be out there with them.

I do not know what the Pro-rider teaches people, but competitors need to be made aware that there will always be repercussions/ramifications to their brain-fade actions on the circuit.
-How many competitors hold their line under brakes at 200+ kms into a corner – when there is a competitor going 40 kms faster about to pass on the inside?
-When slipstreaming, do you rely solely on the person in front to be your eyes? Pukekohe incident comes to mind.
-When you’ve broken down, do you put your hand up to let fellow competitors (and flaggies) know that you’re slowing?
-Do you stay off the racing line if you’re leaking oil?
-Do you have to stop at designated stop points under a red flag?
-Do you pull out of pit lane infront of other riders going at race speed?
-Do you go the wrong way down the track?
-Do you stop right on the edge of the track if you’ve broken down?

Some of the above stuff is racing 101 – BUT, how many people simply forget to do it?? Or realistically, know what to do – we all assume our fellow racers know the simple stuff. But newbies? WE (and I mean all ‘experienced’ racers) need to pass on our knowledge to avoid these stupid accidents taking place and taking lives.

Don’t just think that stupidity is rife in NZ either. I was leading a race at Eastern Creek back in April, and came around turn 2 – hit oil, and slid 30 feet sideways (was a bit fun at the time I admit), but I immediately raised my left arm (as did my passenger), to warn others behind us. I frantically waved and pointed to the oil on the track in front of us – and you could see heaps of it way infront – but about 10 rigs (with experienced guys aboard) looked at me, and decided they should race off at full steam instead………. We were expecting death around the next few corners!! Seriously! If a race leader puts his hand up frantically waving, should other racers take a split second to wonder why? They do if it's raining......
There are so many risks out there when racing, and we all need to make sure that everybody out there is up to speed. (Pun intended)

I know you will take this seriously Billy – and about time someone does.

Scrivy

Yip,

Some very good ideas there,Especially the colour blindness test for licensing,A good chunk of that is more about licensing and is not part of my brief,But I will pass it onto Vicky and discuss it further,My personal thoughts are that maybe the time has come where roadracing has its own specific safety officer rather than the current system whereby there is a safety commissioner that covers all disciplines,

Another idea I came up with and would like too see implemented is that all entry forms for roadracing have a list of,Say 5 questions from relevant chapters of the rulebook that have to be answered before an entry can be accepted,Cause lets face it,Alot of the issues we cover here are mentioned in the rules,But because nobody bothers too read it, They don't know,I think another issue I noticed at the last Vic club meeting was as has been mentioned earlier,The number of people in and out of the control tower,If a competitor is spoken to by an official and is not happy with the punishment or has any other issue,Their only way of communication is through the riders rep,NOT in the control tower/room arguing with the folks trying to run the meeting,It is my intention for the National series to have 3 riders reps,1 series rep who will be a non rider,1 chosen by the competitors at riders briefing at each round and 1 from the sidecar fratenity so the competitors can liase with them in a reasonable time frame and orderly manner without confrontation taking place between riders and officials.

So as you can all see there's plenty of work to do yet,But the area of safety in particular needs to be dealt with asap

[scrivy]

I would think the instructors would have too be screened by MNZ first,But that said as Ive already stated some of the other clubs already have a good process in place and are looking at improving what they already have.

Definitely will not be an old boys club system,The instructors would have too be cleared by MNZ as stated above,Not the clubs and yes there would have too be a standardised system,

Most current superbike/600 riders would be alright too carry on,But those that do the dumb stuff mentioned elsewhere consistently,May be required to take on a mentor for a specified time frame.

Billy,

I think all riders should be made to attend a session.
Reason being, there is currently nothing in place at present to grade/advise/instruct a rider, nor was there when they first attained their licence.
It might seem to be ok to instruct people acquiring new licenses from now on - but what if someone who you thought was 'highly skilled' went on to cause an accident? Would a coroner ask if they too had the instruction? If not, why not? Just cause they've been 'around' done not make them 'experienced'. A 10 year veteran backmarker in the superbike class does not mean that he is as experienced as Stroudy.

Imagine how bad our roads would be if there were no reminders in place for changes of road rules since you got your drivers licence 40 years ago.... There would be carnage.
Think of commercial pilots - they get amendments very regularly. They are trained/advised/instructed for the worst case scenario - but how many of them would ever have to use their knowledge and trained skill?? Very few! But they still need to know it. We all know the results if they don't.......

Would you think a 500GP rider was experienced? I would! So why did Kevin Magee do a burnout over the brow of a hill at Laguna many years ago and nearly kill Bubba Shobert? Dumb shit, from someone at the pinnacle of their sport!

If you bring in an instruction course (or whatever you want to call it), it has to be applied to all users of the circuit.
Flaggies need to know whats acceptable also. Stewards/Clerks need to take action if the rules are breached.

I sincerely hope you don't roll this out without input from alot of very experienced competitors - otherwise it would be seen by a few to be a boys club.

I look forward to reading more on this topic.

Well done Billy.


Scrivy

[Billy]

Sorry, I didnt realise it was ok for a slow rider to brake, swerve in front off, and block someone who isnt even braking because they are far faster.

You mean a fast rider ........

No, that's the sort of shit that should be sending people home. That shit kills.

And thats the sort of stuff I'm talking about and exactly the response I would expect.

[MSTRS:Me]

Flaggies need to know whats acceptable also.

Too bloody right. Over the years, there's been too many instances where flaggies are not up to the job. Which is why MNZ will soon insist that a trained, certified marshal must be used at every point.
Doesn't matter if it's "only club racing". So what? The dangers are perhaps even more real, with a mix of people (riders and officials) both on and off the track whose attitudes are just a bit too casual

[scracha]

Sorry, I didnt realise it was ok for a slow rider to brake, swerve in front off, and block someone who isnt even braking because they are far faster.

Glad you clarified. I thought you merely meant someone doing a block pass or holding their inside line. The braking swerving thing is bloody dangerous indeed.

Another idea I came up with and would like too see implemented is that all entry forms for roadracing have a list of,Say 5 questions from relevant chapters of the rulebook that have to be answered before an entry can be accepted,Cause lets face it,Alot of the issues we cover here are mentioned in the rules

That'd take far too much manpower to police. This is where technology could come in. Online entry. 5 multiple choice from a large pool of questions, but you have to get them ALL correct. Repeat until all 5 are correct.